Verin's Mistake

Posted by Bors on 06.02.01 00:00

I have been trying to solve the Verin puzzle. Although I haven't figured out her motive completely, I have gathered some pieces of evidence and have speculated on her mistake.

First, we find out that she can lie, which has been pointed out frequently on this site. Then, it has been questioned whether or not she is bound, which leads to questions about he age and of ageless appearance. But, recall that she gives Egwene the ter'angreal from Corianin Nedal to enter Tel'aran'rhiod during that same scene. Later, Egwene meets the Wise Ones who regularly enter Tel'aran'rhiod. Interesting coincidence.

Then, Verin may have channeled in a stedding. Recall, this is to sense the emptiness of an Ogier who had some bad luck in the Ways. In Winter's Heart we learn that there are exceptions to channeling in a non-channeling zone. Also, characters in the WoT often wonder how the Ways were created by male channelers if a stedding is a non-channeling zone. What does this tell us? Maybe Verin has a ter'angreal or a talent not publicly revealed (this would not be the first instance of this).

Before I digress too much, let me point out that Verin seemed to have some foresight about Alanna's bonding. Verin mentioned to Perrin to be wary of Alanna, as if Verin suspected Alanna was going to try to bond one of the ta'veren, but Perrin was not the one that Verin wanted Alanna to bond, so Verin warned him. I may be mistaken, but I do not think that Verin was all too disappointed in Alanna bonding Rand. Also, in Winter's Heart, I believe either Verin or Cadsuane clearly mentioning the value of that bond (Manipulative women. Is that adjective redundant?). That bond led them to him in Far Madding.

That brings us to another Verin fact. She is reluctant to reveal her identity in Far Madding due to some past criminal offense. Far Madding has had a couple False Dragons and has created a non-channeling zone around their city. Verin has mentioned that she has been in a "Trolloc boiling pot once or twice". She mentioned in the prologue of book eight that she had tried to use a version of compulsion on as man once, and it failed disastrously. Could this been related to her actions in Far Madding? Maybe.

Considering her talent with a version of compulsion, I would like to point out that she used this as a means to make all of those Aes Sedai held by the Aiel Wise Ones swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn. Note that Cadsuane thinks this is very peculiar (the fealty swearing), since the Aes Sedai are not very close to the ta'veren, etc. This lack or knowledge on Cadsuane's part demonstrates that Verin and Cadsuane are not partners in crime. This is also highlighted by Verin almost putting a tasteless sleeping herb into Cadsuane's tea. Note that Verin decides not to add the herb after Cadsuane reveals her intent with the Dragon Reborn. Also, Cadsuane ponders not understanding why a certain fellow went into the blight. I think she is speaking of Luc leaving Andor to go to defeat the Dark One at Shayol Ghul. (I believe that this has now become the "Lost Highway" of theories.)

To close, I think that Verin is the soothsayer, fortuneteller, etc. of Caemlyn who determined what must happen for a happy ending to occur. (I wish I could remember her name). She is the one who caused Rand's blood mother to go to the Aiel, and also Luc to go the Shayol Ghul. I believe that her sending Luc to Shayol Ghul was her mistake she made seventy years ago. Now, since she knows what must happen for the world to be a happy place, she is doing whatever she can to fix her mistake and make everything come out right. This would include her giving Egwene the ter'angreal, making the Aes Sedai swear fealty, having Alanna bond to Rand, etc. I could be off, but I think I can say with certainty that Verin is being manipulative to redeem her seventy year old error.

wotmania says: I really need to read all of WoT over again... But in any case, I can definitely say that Verin has always been one of my favorite characters, mostly because of the mystery surrounding her. Every time a scene starts from Verin's point of view, I'm a little more tuned in to what is going on, hoping to figure out what her seventy year old plan/secret is. I do not have too much to say about this theory exactly, except to say that I will be extremely happy to eventually find out for certain what Verin's secrets are.

Bad Ash says: I also feel that there is a lot more to Verin than meets the eye. However, I am vehement in my belief that she is just Verin Mathwin, not Gitara Moroso. Gitara Moroso died when she revealed that the Dragon Reborn had been born. Suian Sanche and Moiraine Damodred saw her die. I don't think Moiraine and Verin could have been in such close contact during the critical past few years and Moiraine not determine that something was up. Verin's mistake could not have possibly been sending Luc to the Blight as the timing is wrong. Luc was Tigraine's mother, and as Rand was only in his early twenties when Verin made that comment in her POV, that would mean Luc was sent to the Blight fortysomething years before his sister went to the Aiel waste. That just isn't feasible from a biological standpoint. As for your points about Verin's "lie" and channeling in a stedding, well those are just theories themselves, and largely open to debate. Bottom line is, I think Verin is Verin. Yes, she has an agenda, but it's her agenda.


Comments

Waygates

Posted by zero on 25.03.01 00:00
The waygates were made outside of the stedding. It says that over and over again in more than one of the book. The men did not channel inside the stedding to make the waygates, they made them outside because they couldn't channel inside of steddings.

Just wanting some clarification

Posted by Lord Savaunt on 25.03.01 00:00
At what point did Verin lie? I can't recall any lie that she's been caught in yet could some one fill me in on where she is thought to have lied, and about what.


Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.

Lying Verin

Posted by Anima Sedai on 16.05.01 14:58
Verin has lied on more than one occassion. Starting in TGH, when she tells Perrin that Moiraine sent her. It was then revealed later after Falme that Moiraine didn't send her to watch over the boys. Lie #1.

I'm sure there have been others, but this all points that Verin has somehow gotten around the 3 Oaths. Or, she is not really bound by them. Maybe only by one of them. Clearly she can lie. Secondly, the Sisters are not supposed to use the OP on each other. (or they are not supposed to use it as a weapon) Verin clearly uses it as "a weapon" when she uses it as Compulsion on the datsang Sisters.

Who is she and what Ajah is she a part of???????

Anima Sedai
Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah


Anima Sedai
Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah

Married to the Dark One
Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis

Verin's lie?

Posted by Call_me_Tim on 22.05.01 19:30
I believe that RJ has stated quite clearly that the business of Verin telling Perrin that she was sent by Moiraine was a miswrite on his part, and not intended to be a lie of Verin's. It then follows that RJ's bother to state this endorses the concept that Verin has not clearly lied. I can find nothing else that she has said which could be a clear lie. Yes, she has many secrets, has a hidden past, and misdirects folks left and right, but that is the most common behavior of Aes Sedai if you take the entire story as a whole. When Aleis Barsala in Far Madding seeks her name, her answer is, "All of you may call me Eadwina.", which isn't a lie. She wasn't directly asked her name, which makes the ruse even easier.

By the way, isn't it interesting, in the prologue of PoD, when Verin learns that Katerine has escaped, that while she is clearly shocked, what she says is, "She's Red!, and neither a coward nor weak in the Power! The Car'a'carn could be in danger!..." Never be fooled by Verin, she thinks clearly at all times. The only reason she would ever think to call Rand the Car'a'carn is when speaking to Aiel.
I'm really tempted to theorize that that escape was facilitated by Alviarin at Mesaana's order, which would name Katerine as BA. But that's off the topic.

No way is Verin really Gitara Moroso, but that has already been laid to rest by previous posts. Others have suggested that she is a dreamwalker, a thought not unsupported by her knowledge of the various dream ter'angreal stolen by the BA, and Coreanin Nedeal's (sp?) notes on them. Some say she IS Coreanin, who had hidden out in T'A'R for a very long time, and still others suggest that she found an Oath Rod in T'A'R and released herself of her oaths. None of that would explain the long-standing order of banishment in the name of Verin Mathwen at Far Madding, so I tend to doubt it.

More plausible is that it seems every sister out there likes knowing things or having things that no other sister knows about, and the dream things were her private horde of power. That she chose to share those things with Elayne and Nynaeve do leave questions unanswered, like how close to Siuan and Moiraine was she, or how much did she know of their work without their knowledge? But for me, one question it answers is that she definitely isn't a Darkfriend. She has done too many things that support Rand and the other Two Rivers folks. Most strongly in this is when she is considering whether to dose Cadsuane in Aleis' home on the Heights in Far Madding, until Cadsuane reveals with no shading of truth her intentions for Rand.


Call me Tim

Katerine is BA

Posted by Akir on 29.09.01 14:26
Just a small comment on "call me tim's" post. Katerine is revealed as BA by her own thoughts and her conversation with Galina when the Tower assembly is on its way to Carehien (sp?) to eventually kidnap Rand. That being true, its probably a good bet that her escape was facilitated by Alvi, especially since the escape apparently happens at the same time that Alvi disappears from the Tower.

On the main theorey, Verin isn't the foreteller Giatra Moroso from Camelyn who sent Luc and Tiagraine off on their fatefull journeys. As someone else pointed out, Moiraine and Siuan saw her die after fortelling Rand's birth.

Verin is one of my favorite characters and she is definitely on the side of the light. Her mistake wasn't sending Luc or Tigraine on their journeys (can that even be called a mistake), but I don't think we have enough info to say what it was yet.

Darkfriend?

Posted by Topdeck on 21.10.01 06:31
Verin may not be darkfriend, but saying she isn't because she's done too much to help out the guys is not quite right. The dark knows just as well as the light that the only way things are gonna get sorted is at Tar'mon Gaidon, and so Verin may just be pushing for the last battle. Or maybe not. Just my thoughts.

Topdeck.

Lucs Identity!!!

Posted by Ver Jeo on 15.02.02 18:02
The thing is, when , Luc, Stalker, Isam first reveals himself, he is said by Perrin to look like Rand, Aviendha also makes a comment about a man looking like Rands grumpy uncle, when weaving a Gateway... So Luc is, Luc/Isam/Stalker is Rands Father...
B-sides, I always wanted to b = when i was a kid, but as an adult I tend to look more like... Well, whatever!!!

Luc's identity revealed again

Posted by Redturtleneck on 27.03.02 22:22
Luc/Slayer is the one who killed Rands father not his father. Recall (cant remeber where exactly) that it is stated that Rands father is killed in the Blight because he wouldnt fight someone who looked like his dead wife. That was Luc.

Maybe

Posted by AvadaKedavra on 11.04.02 09:13
I agree with quite a bit of it, except the mistake 70 years ago couldn't have been sending Luc to the blight. Because that was done somewhere around 5 years before Rand was born (give or take) which would put it at 30, at the latest, years ago. The rest is good though.




Toad D-Manz

Luc's identity

Posted by lanthis on 14.06.02 10:00
I was under the impression it was already decided Luc was Rand's Uncle or something. Wasn't he Tigraine's brother? I don't have the book here, and it's been a couple months since I read that passage.

I also think Verin is still bound to the Oath Rod, there's a few instances where she convinces herself in her mind her words are true either by completing the sentence mentally or rearranging the words so they're true but can easily be taken out of context. I feel she would only go through such pains only if she were still bound.

I also don't think she actually channeled when she studied the Ogier in the Stedding. I'm pretty sure touching someone without a soul is more a physical feeling then something done with the Power.

problem

Posted by Crolan_Dashiva on 22.05.03 13:25
Th eproblem with your conclusinon here is(I'm at work so I cna';t look up her name either) the future-reader you speak of. She died the day Rand was born. She died giving that final fortelling to Moiraine and Siuan, so that they'd know to look for him. Ain't Verin, but nice thoguht.

no way

Posted by el_nynaeve_mandragoran on 09.12.03 02:37
good theory... although I must say its wrong. she isn't who you think she is. guatara or whoever. I think she is just on rands side, cause remember cadsuane through out verin to throw off the first. that and even moraine was able to clame another name. but good try... I think verin does have her own agenda, but I think that includes being on rands side very much.



Stealer of Tigrs' Brain
Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.
Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.
New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, & Delireus!
Worshipper of Snoopster!

Kinda Dead

Posted by Dracaena on 07.10.04 05:06
The woman who Foretold about the Dragon Reborn was Gitara...and she kinda dieded...read New Spring...3 ppl saw her, don't think she could fake it

Verin as the Aes Sedai advisor to Rand's Grandma?!!

Posted by Tree sister on 05.03.05 21:20
Gitara Sedai was the Aes Sedai advisor to Tigraine's mom (can't recall her name) before she became Tamra Ospenya's Keeper. She had the fortelling and supposedly she told Tigraine that she had to go into the Waste and become a Maiden of the Spear and is also hinted at being responsible for Luc's disapearence. She dies in New Spring foretelling Rand's birth so she can't be Verin.

I don't know if Verin has actually been caught in a lie or not, but chanelling inside a stedding could be done with a well. Also the Waygates are just ouside the Stedding, so the Aes Sedai who made them wouldn't have been within the Stedding.

A Well

Posted by La Mett on 28.12.05 11:48
In regards to Verin's channeling in the Stedding: could she have been the owner of a ter'angreal that acted as a well for the Power, much like the one used by Nynaeve in Far Madding?

A Well

Posted by La Mett on 28.12.05 12:54
In regards to Verin's channeling in the Stedding: could she have been the owner of a ter'angreal that acted as a well for the Power, much like the one used by Nynaeve in Far Madding?

All About Verin

Posted by DocBean on 23.03.06 14:00
1. Verin did lie, RJ said himself this was not a misstep, as someone earlier seemed to think. Of course she will try not to lie, because she wouldn't want to be caught.

2. Verin didn't send Luc or Isam, at least there has been no hint at that.

3. Verin didn't have to channel in the stedding. RJ said after that was brought up that we would "learn something about"...then paused... "people without their soul soon" some say he was about to say verin, some suggest a well, but didn't want to give it away at that time. Souless feel empty so you wouldn't need to channel into them, maybe you're reading too far into that one.

4. Verin is using a form of compulsion, even Elza a known DF wants to see Rand live to the last battle so "...the dark one can defeat him there" but this doesn't mean that she is all good. Maybe she is a DF and has been ordered to keep Rand alive.

5. She is keeping info from Egwene about TAR, she almost killed Cadsuane, Moraine said not to trust her... she is definitely not to be trusted, yet.

I still don't know what to think, I don't trust her at all. But nothing points to her being of the Black, but then again I think that is just what this series needs, someone to turn out to be bad that we aren't prepared for, but that could be Aram; he was dressed exactly the same as a DF at the DF meeting with Bors when we first saw him, Yellow jacket and red pants if i remember correctly, but that's a whole new theory.

Gitara Moroso

Posted by mumbaindude on 05.04.06 05:27
The lady you are referring to in your last paragraph was Gitara Moroso, the then Keeper of Chronicles. if you remember in the New Spring, she had another foretelling in front of the then Amyrlin & Siuan & Moraine; after which she died. She foretold the birth of Rand and the whereabouts of the birth place & thus launching Moraine & Siuan on their life long quest.

I am sure Verin has got nothing to do with Gitara.

Gitara is dead

Posted by Lithôniel Sedai on 14.07.06 05:28
Verin cannot be Gitara because didn't she Fortell Rand's birth on the slopes od Dragonmount and then keel over dead in Moiraine's (or was it Siuane's?)arms?