The White Tower Conflict

Posted by Key West on 20.06.01 15:12

I have given a lot of thought to how the struggle for the White Tower will resolve itself and thought that other Wotmaniacs might be interested in what I think. In a nutshell I believe that it will be a relatively bloodless conflict with Egwene as the victor (like Rand’s conquest of Illian). The key to Egwene’s victory will be the purge of the Black Ajah from the Tower which will change the dynamics of internal Tower politics in her favor.

First consider how the purge will take place. I think that the most likely plan of action for the Sitters conducting the purge will look something like the following because it seems to make the most sense. First, the Sitters need people to help them hunt down the Black Ajah. The 10 Rebels in the Tower fit the bill, and the Sitters seem to have little remorse in using them for the task, so I think they will be the first ones tested and then they will start the hunt. Next the Sitters should start from the top down in the Tower because once they have control of the leadership the purge can be more easily managed and kept secret. However, Elaida and Alviarin will be left alone because as Amyrlin and Keeper the Sitters cannot simply make them disappear if they turn out to be Black Ajah. That would tip off the Black Ajah and, in addition, Elaida or Alviarin would take over the purge and the Sitters seem determined to do this on their own. All of the Sitters will be questioned, and probably the Ajah heads, after that it will turn into a routine process of cornering every Sister one by one and questioning her.

Once the leadership is established the purge will have to move quickly to avoid detection. This is because the Black Sisters that get captured will be out of circulation and sooner or later they will be missed. I think that the Sitters are also smart enough to know that detection would mean: (i) open warfare in the tower (where no one knows who is who); (ii) escape for a large part of the Black Ajah; (iii) or both. I would estimate that they have from 24 to 48 hours to finish the job once the leaders are purged. Since there are only 250-300 Sisters in the Tower that is not an impractical time frame, and once the process passes the halfway point it will take less and less time to complete because there will be more and more hunters.

The Sisters who are confirmed Black Ajah, or ones who will not reswear the first oath, will be segregated and guarded until the purge is over. While the purge is taking place some Sisters will have the job of putting the confirmed Darkfriends and suspects to the question. I believe that the focus of the questioning will be Black Ajah names and plots. In any event, I believe that the Sitters will learn the following things from the Black Ajah about Elaida: (i) she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat as part of a Black Ajah plot responsible for breaking the Tower; (ii) she kidnapped Rand, had him tortured, the whole mission was crushed by a few hundred Asha’man, thirty Sisters ended up prisoners, and Elaida covered it up; (iii) she sent 51 Sisters and 500 Tower Guards to their doom at the Black Tower because she underestimated the Asha’man, and covered that up too; (iv) she issued the decrees that turned the Tower into an "armed camp," and alienated the rulers who deal with Rand, all at the direction of the Black Ajah. Please note that Elaida believes that (iii) and (iv) are mistakes big enough for the Sitters to depose and still her and that is why she is letting Alviarin slap the snot out of her and tell her exactly what to do. If Elaida believes these mistakes will get her deposed I think we should also.

On a side note, I think that Mesaana will get snapped up somewhere in the process. She will swear the first oath, because she will be in a situation where she will have no choice, and be asked something like ‘are you of the Black Ajah,’ since she is not she will be able to truthfully answer no. She will then be released to help hunt, but instead she will sound the alarm for the Black Ajah and have Alviarin use her ability to travel to get the rest of the Black Ajah out of the Tower. It just stands to reason that the bad guys need their Dreadlords.

Once the Sitters get the information I mention above and realize how badly Elaida has bungled things I think they will be about half way through the purge. Egwene and the Rebels with their army will suddenly appear on the scene. At this point I believe that the Sitters and Ajah Heads (the 'Tower Leadership') will be completely in charge of the tower, and no one will be doing anything that Elaida or Alviarin say because they think the two may be Black Ajah. This is where we come to the real "CRUNCH TIME" for the Tower Leadership. Armed with what they will know about Elaida, and the fact that there is an army of 50,000+ troops led by Gareth Bryne and 300 + Sisters outside the walls, what will they decide to do? Let’s consider the options: (i) Fight; (ii) Surrender; or (iii) Negotiate.

I think that negotiation is the only real option and here’s why. If they decided to fight they would probably believe that it would be long and bloody (unless they realize that the Rebels can Travel). That will not be acceptable to them because they know the Tower needs to be whole to fight the Last Battle (which could be tomorrow), and deal with the Black Tower. Surrender is not an option because the Tower Leadership will know that the Black Ajah is alive and well among the Rebels. In addition, they will know there will be no way to purge the Black Sisters with the rebels if they give up because they will no longer be in power.

Assuming I am correct, when they do negotiate they really only have one option, depose Elaida and accept Egwene as Amyrlin Seat. That creates a Win-Win situation for both sides. The Tower Sisters get what they need and the Rebels get what they want. As additional support for this conclusion you should consider the Pros and Cons of keeping Elaida as Amyrlin Seat. I put together my own list that follows with an eye toward the major points. I am sure that I missed quite a few points and would appreciate comments here.

Pro: 1. The Tower may be able to say to the world it was never really broken;
2. Keeping Elaida will keep the current Tower Leadership in power;
3. Egwene could be worse than Elaida;
4. Egwene and/or her advisors could be Black Ajah;
5. ?

Con: 1. Elaida was a dupe of the Black Ajah and raised to the Amyrlin Seat as a part of a Black Ajah plot that broke the Tower;
2. Elaida is an ego maniac;
3. Elaida has made enemies of many of the Tower Leadership by being a dictator, giving out penances, and exiling Sitters to Ebou Dar;
4. Elaida kidnapped Rand . . . we all know how that ended . . . then covered it up;
5. Elaida got 51 Sisters and 500 Tower Guards crushed at the Black Tower . . . we all know how that ended too . . . covered it up, and failed to deal with the Black tower when she had the chance;
6. Elaida would be more firmly entrenched as Amyrlin Seat if they keep her, and therefore even harder to deal with, because keeping her would in effect be a ratification of her past actions;
7. Keeping Elaida will mean a bloody fight with the Rebels at a time when the Tower need to be whole more than anything, it would also mean the death of many Sisters/Warders/soldiers on both sides;
8. The relationship with Rand basically cannot be repaired if Elaida stays, and that also means
the nations that he rules;
9. Elaida’s past cover ups indicate that she will probably cover up future disasters and
therefore she cannot be trusted;
10. The damage done to the Tower by the Black Ajah inspired decrees that El signed will be very hard to undo with Elaida in place, including the ones driving the Ajahs apart and alienating all the rulers of the nations;
11. Elaida had the king of Illian (Mattin Stephanos) kidnapped (speculation but very probably true);
12. Elaida is Red and the Red may have been raising up False Dragons;
13. Elaida allowed Tar Valon to fall into disrepair (Leane saw this in TAR);
14. Victory over the Rebels would mean the stilling of many Sisters and trials for treason and it just is not practical on the scale that they would have to do it;
15. They would have to drive away most of the 100's of new novices that the Rebels have collected, at a time when the Tower needs new blood badly (this assumes that they know about the 450+ new novices the Rebels have);
16. If they fight and lose they will PAY BIGTIME;
17. The Tower Leadership will have to rely on High Captain Chubain (who is untested an maybe a Darkfriend) to win against Gareth Bryne (a Great Captain) and that is probably not a bet they will make;
18. If they fight they will have to do something VERY NASTY to Egwene for being a rebel Amrylin. They know that Egwene has a personal relationship with Rand and he will be really Hacked Off if anything bad happens to her, maybe even so mad as to send in the Aiel and Asha’man to get
some payback! Now that would be cool;
19. Finally think on this, with Egwene and the Rebels ready to kick in the front door, this whole scene looks like when the last Red Amyrlin Seat, Bonwhin, almost led the Tower to disaster against Hawkwing. That Amyrlin was deposed for less bungling than Elaida has caused and I am sure that the Tower Leadership is thinking on this, or will be. The Ajah Heads have been whispering in corners for a reason and I think it involves the end for Elaida. Also, I have never seen it mentioned before, but Elaida may actually be Bonwhin reborn;

Imagine the scene where the Tower Leadership marches into Elaida’s study and says "you're finished" and then drags her out of the Tower by the hair kicking and screaming... Too cool.

I would like to add three additional side notes here which are off shoots of this analysis. First, something that may help the Tower leadership make its decision to accept Egwene is military action by Gareth Bryne. I have been and Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army for 10+ years and tried to imagine how I would take the tower if I were in Bryne’s place. Simply put I would DIVIDE and CONQUER. First, I would split my forces to cover every bridge and the ports (if I could get the ships). Next, I would create teams of Aes Sedai and soldiers to capture strategic points in the city’s defenses using gateways. I would start with strategic points along the outer wall, like bridge defenses and strong points, and quickly take the entire wall one piece at a time hours max on this). In addition, I would target troop concentrations (like large barracks) when they are least prepared (3 or 4 AM), and armories because soldiers without weapons are obviously not very effective. With Sisters to give orders the Tower Guards would be totally confused and probably take orders from the Rebels. The Tower Guards could then be herded through gateways to camps set up for prisoners off of the island. Basically, with the Tower Guards surprised, outflanked, and confused there will be a minimum of bloodshed. Egwene is smart enough to realize that once the struggle for the tower is over she will need the Tower Guards to fight in the Last Battle, so minimizing the killing makes perfect sense and, in addition, this fight is really between the Sisters. Once the outer wall is secure Bryne can move his entire force into the city and take control of everything except the Tower and it’s outer wall. Then the Tower and its grounds becomes a prison for the Tower Aes Sedai. I think that the negotiating would take place in earnest at this point because it would basically be a Mexican Standoff. However, somewhere in here Elaida will spring a nasty surprise on Egwene that will put Egwene and Gawyn together and fulfill Egwene’s dream of Gawyn saving her or breaking her neck.

As for the captured Black Sisters, including the ones with the Rebels, I do not think that they will be stilled because they can still be useful as weapons in the last battle. I think that Egwene will make them swear about 100 new oaths and make them wear adam for the rest of their lives.

This last thought is way out there, but I think it is poetic justice. Now that Rand has cleansed the taint on Saidin there will eventually be an alliance between the Black Tower and the White. As a peace offering, and a way to keep an eye on the Asha’man, Egwene will give them Elaida’s "palace" as a new home. After the Black Tower is "rent in blood and fire" (probably fighting their own Darkfriends) they will be in the market for some new real estate anyway.

I hope that this will spark some debate and look forward to your comments.

wotmania says: This is an exceptionally long theory, and I'm exhausted just from formatting it to get it posted! Seriously, it's a good, in-depth analysis of the entire White Tower Conflict. Now I'll leave the comments and debate to the good people of wotmania...


Comments

COOL!

Posted by Vercingetorix on 20.06.01 15:30
Wow! Awesome!! I like it!!! I would offer a better reply and anlysis of the theory but I am about to leave work so there isn't time. maybe later. Good job!


Vercingetorix

Theory Post Admin

I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck. Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.

Very good indeed!

Posted by Ananke on 20.06.01 15:45
Except that Elaida isn't black Ajah, and doesn't know Alviarin is. She took the lead of the deposition team by sheer strengh of character.


Ananke
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A note about Military Attack on TV

Posted by RabidWombat on 20.06.01 16:06
The Aes Sedai can use the one power to defend themselves and their warders. This can lead to strange situations since a bulk of the fighting will be done by AS (if it comes to that). The big loophole is of course, in defense of the warders. Warders aren't bound by the three oaths. So if a warder from TV defends an area the AS bonded to that warder can use the one power to 'defend' him. Of course if that warder is killed... You can see where this leads. We could easily have a warder blood bath unless both sides decide to fight civily. If it gets too bad that warders are killed by rival AS as a matter of rule, then AS might be able to legally use the one power against rival AS as long as their warder is within range of the rival AS.

Of course the rebel AS have the HUGE advantage of gating. This alone might win them the battle, as long as they are careful not to give it away to the tower AS accidentally.

RabidWombat


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Rebels

Posted by Dragon Re-reborn on 20.06.01 16:15
the rebels have rediscovered gating, making of ter'angreal and the way to heal stilling... they have the Kin and about 400 new novices(as was mentioned) along with knowledge of the Sea Folk chanelers and the Bowl of Winds (unles they plan to let the sea folk keep it). These things alone plus the possible help of the Ashamen will insure a quick and easy "negotiation". Great post and i agree whole heartedly.



"were there any guards?"
"Yes." "Where are they now?" "Last time i saw him he was looking blankly at the sky. Do you know how hard chainmail is on daggers?"

Very Good

Posted by Eagle of Krondor on 20.06.01 16:21
That is a very good theory m8, well worth a slap on the back for being so damn clever. I dont think i will read the theories anymore, after all with all these clever theories we could practically write the next book
n1

EoK aka Calis
Valerhu son of tomas
defender of Krondor
Plague on the Panthian Race
o.o.k i'll stop

Long on wind.

Posted by headcase on 20.06.01 17:22
Good thinking. Elaida has to go somehow, and only a fool would mess with Gareth Bryne. Go Army!!!

Hmm...

Posted by Malkier on 20.06.01 18:53
Looks like I'm in the minority here.

Thanks for the theory. Quite a lot to think about here. But I’ll focus on your main point: I have given a lot of thought to how the struggle for the White Tower will resolve itself and ...In a nutshell I believe that it will be a relatively bloodless conflict with Egwene as the victor (like Rand’’s conquest of Illian).

If I had to illustrate your well thought out theory I would compare it to the cold war between the US and the USSR. Why wasn’t the trigger pulled by one side or the other? The ultimate damage would hurt both sides. By 1980 the USSR was struggling internally just like the Tower is in turmoil in WotWorld. By the time Gorby was doing his thing the USSR still could have blown the doors off of parts of the West. But to what avail? It was smarter to cave and try to regroup. Not a perfect comparison I know, but close I think. So, in the real world, and if clear minded AS take ultimate control away from Elaida, I agree with you. The big build up will turn into a series of negotiations and that’s that. Let’s get ready for The Last Battle baby.

But that’s all based on logic and sound reason. So I disagree with you for two reasons:

A. I don’t believe things will go so smoothly. One of the Dark One’s Great Plans is merely to screw things up. Doesn’t really matter if he gets anything out of it. As long as it doesn’t work. Let’s not forget that The Dark Lord knows clearly what is going on from both sides of the street. Okay. He may not know about Dark Sisters being questioned in the Tower but I wouldn’t put it past him. RJ has told us that the DO is equal to the Creator. The Creator has taken a hands off approach. The DO is in it up to his earlobes. For that reason alone the Tower Battle could get very ugly.

B. In this world many critics and fans are getting bored. Starting with PoD and then with WH book sales remain strong but the mood is starting to get ugly. People are wanting some action. So in this next edition they might get it. Including the Tower. And RJ has set it up to be messy. Even if it is pretty quickly resolved. It won’t be through negotiations but with Egwene’s bloody hand around the Tower’s throat tensing to cut off it’s air.

That’s my take anyway. Thanks.


<a href=http://www.ess-a.com/wotmania_archive/Malk1.htm>Cool Fish</a>

I think it will end differently

Posted by kavorka on 20.06.01 19:37
I think the battle will be going bad for Egwene...... Gareth Bryne will about to be killed by Mesaana....... then

Rand/Nyn will access the keys, and everyone will be momentarily disoriented except Siuan who will rush in and balefire the Forsaken and then the tide will turn and Egwene will win......

(If Rand's cleansing of the taint doesn't play into the White tower battle, I will be horribly disappointed)

Poetic Justice

Posted by Anima Sedai on 20.06.01 20:39
Elaida held by an adam....I get shivers just thinking about it. But who will hold the leash? I mean, think about it. AS get sick to their stomachs even thinking about damane and the sul'dam. Even stilling. Even men channeling (god forbid). Who is going to have a strong enough stomach to do it. Maybe Nynaeve and Elayne, but they are in Caemlyn trying to win Elayne's throne for her. And are they going to have enough AS willing to hold all the BA from the rebels and TV?

Another question, are they going put an adam on the TV AS? To keep them from stabbing the rebels in the back during the fighting? (also to use as a weapon instead of just tying off a shield, because we know those can be untied.) And are the rebel AS going to have the stomach to do it???

Too many questions. My head hurts.

Anima Sedai
Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah


Anima Sedai
Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah

Married to the Dark One
Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis

About Elaida being black ajah

Posted by Lord Savaunt on 20.06.01 21:04
If I recall in book 9 we find out that at least one black ajah member THINKS that Elaida is one of their own. Her reason was that they (the evil Aes Sedai) are always aware of Elaidas plans before the rest of the tower is. They know what proclamations and such that Elaida will write and propose before the hall of the tower is even convened.

We the readers realize that is because of Alviarnin being the one who is black mailing Elaida. I can't ever remember if it is her or Galina that is the head of the black sisters. Either way Alviarnin is a very high ranking member. She's been using Elaida from the very beginning as a puppet. That way when things go south she (Alviarnin) isn't left looking guilty. The whole reason that Alviarnin supported Elaida was to split the tower. I doubt that it ever even occured to Ms. Roihan to think that such a consequence was even possible.

With Elaida being responsible for so many things she will definitely seem to be a member of the Black Ajah. Even the sisters that are interrogating the black sister that they've caught are suspicious now. The one that was originally charged with the task is starting to wonder if she may have misheard the instructions that she was given. Afterall Elaida never said the words black ajah.

That is of course because Elaida was trying to set a up a plot against Alviarnin. She was specific even in so far as saying "Search even as high as the keeper herself" (or words to that effect). She just didnt' want to make it obvious that this was vendetta. Elaida was also most likely uncomfortable with saying the term black ajah. We've seen in other books that she is one of those that doesn't believe in their existence (forget what book, but shortly after she got the seat and was reminiscing about Siuans questioning being filled paranoid rantings about the BA). So it seems that this was a plan to use the perception of the black ajah to sack Alviarnin. Of course if Elaida only realized the irony of that I don't think she'd laugh much.


Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.

*opens his mouth and shuts it*

Posted by Vanin on 21.06.01 05:03
I really am impressed. That's the best theory so far. Great job!

Justice for Elaida

Posted by He Who Comes W/ The Bong on 21.06.01 14:45
I like your idea of Elaida possibly not being totally disposed of in order to present an image of a whole White Tower. However, I think she'll receive justice via another hand, Thom's. It's my belief that Elaida was the one responsible for stilling Thoms nephew, Owen, without a trial in order to lure Thom away from Morgase so she could become the Queen's primary advisor. With Moraine's letter in hand, Thom finally has the info. he needs to extract revenge.

Good Theory

Posted by Jas the Gaidan on 21.06.01 17:48
I like your theory - in actual fact I tried writing a similar theory myself (didn't get posted though - not quite as well set out as yours ). I believe that a few of our friends will get disappointed and find that Egwene succeeds in a bloodless coup. TV AS will certainly negotiate once they realise the sheer numbers of black ajah they have, as well as the crimes against Elaida.

One thing to remember though, Egwene has her own black ajah worries herself. She may have to do her own purge with the oath rod!

I agree to most part of the theory

Posted by Wotan on 21.06.01 18:51
But maybe the Seanchan will step right in middle of the struggle. Remember there's a prophecy that the Shining Walls are to be broken or something close to that (kneel). And I don't think this theory is fullfilled by the breaking of the tower. TV must break and what better than a fight of Aes Sedai vs. Damane to fullfill this theory.
This is supported that Min saw some Aes Sedai collared and since I don't think the Seanchan will use the a'dam after Rands visit in Seandar, there won't be much time for them to ge collared. It could also be one of those ends of a book where all storylines end up together in gigantic final.


"All universal moral principles are idle fantasies."

Marquis de Sade

Marvelous....

Posted by Call_me_Tim on 21.06.01 20:59
Analysis of circumstances, and very well detailed. Now for my thoughts. (Did you imagine otherwise?)

The Rebels have these several hundred novices with them, far more than the Tower housed in centuries. They are certainly double the TAS in numbers, if not much more. All it will take is one conversation via T'A'R, or Egwene tapping into Elayne dreaming, and you can add the AS, the Kin, the Windfinders, and the Wise Ones currently in both Caemlyn and Cairhien. Now the TAS are outnumbered something like 4:1 or more. Surely the Tower Guards are outmatched by Bryne's army at an even larger ratio.

This has to happen in a fairly short time frame, or at least the beginnings do, so we can count Rand, Nynaeve, and the group that we left resting outside the tomb of Shadar Logoth out of the initial foray. As well, I don't see any Asha'man involved at the outset. But I have a feeling that when the Sitters see what is arrayed against them, they might be more than happy to offer up Elaida in just the way she thinks the rebels will offer up Egwene. (I know, wishful thinking)

One wildcard remains Mesaana. What forces does she have at her disposal to counter such an invasion? Dragkhar, darkhounds, gray men, one of the remaining gholam? We just don't know. But we know that she won't be sitting around waiting to see who wins.

The second wildcard is Halima/Aran'gar. She and Mesaana have been in touch at least on one occasion recently, so it can be assumed that since they are working the opposite groups of AS that they'd compare notes. That will surely spell trouble for Egwene, and Balthamel did know something about war.

A third Wildcard, if indeed Elayne might be contacted to send help, is her own problems in Caemlyn. Daved Hanlon, a darkfriend under orders from Shiaine, is the Captain of her Bodyguard, and there are the four armies heading in from the East.

Something else that needs consideration is the parallel timing of things. We see Perava and Seaine discovered by a group of Sitters during their hunt of Black Ajah, then in turn Talene is uncovered as Black, all in the prologue of WH. Then we see nothing more about that issue. I am of the opinion that the internal 'Black hunt' must be concluded before the invasion of Egwene's forces can commence, from a purely chronological standpoint. Since there is no telling how that will run, and how large an influence it may have on the Tower's ability to withstand Egwene's invasion, it could tend to make any analysis revert to mere speculation.

I have a hard time thinking that the Tower/Rebel conflict will be bloodless, given all the chaotic forces at work on either side. So for those restless and disgruntled fans who crave action, I suspect you'll be satisfied.


Call me Tim

Different sort of action

Posted by Jas the Gaidan on 21.06.01 23:25
Oh I agree there will be action, but I think it will all occur inside the walls of Tar Valon. I think Egwene and her "rebels" will appear at the gates of TV and discover there is a mini civil war happening inside. Surely it would be in the best interests of Egwene and her band to just sit back and wait to see what happens!! And as Call_Me_Tim stated, Mesaana is surely going to be involved, and who knows what she will bring to the conflict.

Mesaana could,

a) Stand and fight - defend her loyal DF's in a massive pitched battle. This would cause the most dramatic action we've seen in the WOT in a long time!

b) Intervene Subtly - Should she discover who is doing the hunting of BA's, she may seek them out and try to use compulsion on them to get them foget that they are hunting BA. I can't really remember if Mesaana was a large compulsion user, and I don't have my books in front of me, so I'm not sure how viable this option is.

c) Leave the BA to look after themselves. She may decide there is no reason to risk her life in attempting to salvage control over the WT. She might realise that Egwene's rebels are most likely going to win anyway, and that Halima - with her/his ability to channel undetected from Aes Sedai, might be able to control/influence the tower better then she could anyway. Although she is unlikely to want to relinquish her power/influence over Alvirian and Elaida, she would probably prefer this to open combat.

Anyway, regardless of the outcome, I see most of the action taking place inside the tower as opposed to outside.

Excellent Theory

Posted by Statman on 22.06.01 08:49
But one thing that has been a common thread is that very few of the Black Ajah know each other, or about other plots in the Tower. So it's very unlikely that anyone will find out about the 51 sisters sent to take out the Black Tower, or even about the failed attempt to capture Rand unless they get Alvarian herself.

I think that Alvarian will fall when Seine and the other Sitters finally act in bringing down the Black Ajah.




Statman

- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.

My Thoughts

Posted by Tsallak on 22.06.01 10:48
I think that given

A) This rebel Aes Sedai thing has been going on for long enough.

B) The fans want action; many saying that for a VIP Battle Royale in book 9, the cleansing scene was boring.

C) We have only 1/2 a death on the women's side (Lanfear died, came back and Moghedien might've died)

Mesaana will die either next book or #11. Obviously fighting would not be smart for her but we've seen some pretty stupid things from a group of 13 One Power Wielding supergeniuses.

Great theory, except....

Posted by Mateo on 22.06.01 11:25
I think it's a well thought out theory, and I suppose I agree with it, although I haven't really given a whole lot of thought.
Anyway, the point...

While looking through the books to try and solve Demandred's identity, I cam across this tidbit. Crown of Swords, American paperback, page 41. Mesanna is talking to her Black Ajah cronie - Alviarin - and the text goes like this:

Messana: "You have a little strength, child. Not much, but enough."
- A weave appeared seemingly from nowhere.
Messana: "This," Mesanna chimed, "is called a gateway."

Hate to step on anyones toes...but the forces in the White Tower will likely have access to gateways come battle time. They may not be able to use them as efficiently and tactically as the Salidar rebels, but still, the odds are somewhat evened.

Gateways

Posted by Key West on 22.06.01 12:41
I believe that in the same scene where Alviarin was taught the weave for Travelling she was also forbidden to teach it to anyone. In fact I think Messana said something like 'use this the way I tell you and keep it to yourself or else.'

I seems clear that Alviarin has been Traveling, but there is nothing to indicate that she has taught anyone else. If Alviarin had taught the weave to anyone outside the BA I think it would have really created a comotion in the Tower. In addition, they would have used it by now to influence events, or at least try to save the 50 sisters sent to attack the Black Tower.

I do think that Alviarin will use Traveling to escape with the remnants of the BA during the purge. However, if the fight for the Tower is bloody as may are predicting maybe she will use it to bring Darkfriends or Shadowspawn into the Tower. I am hoping for the latter myself but it just does not seem to be the most likely resolution.

Key West

Bravo!

Posted by Timekeeper on 22.06.01 22:37
I rather liked the theory, and I think it's 50/50 between negotiation and fighting. Among the Towers, things will be get really intense in Book 10.

Now that saidin is cleansed, Rand only has Flinn and Narishma that he can trust (Logain too, but he hasn't met him in person yet). With the taint gone, Rand will have to do something about Taim. With the M'hael building a cadre of fanatics to support him, the only choice is to cut off the rebellion's head (whether Taim is Darkfriend or not doesn't matter; he's still going for personal control of the BT, and must be stopped).

If Bryne can get his men to block the harbors and lay siege to the bridge towns, they can bring Tar Valon to its knees. My view is that the TG will surrender, but Elaida and the Tower Sedai will put up a fight. Enter Messana and Alviarin: while the AS are distracted, the Black Ajah stages a coup and attempts to sieze control of the WT. I'm assuming Elaida finds out she was a puppet, and takes on Alviarin; Egwene somehow confronts Messana (and finishes her). With Elaida exposed as a puppet, the Tower Sedai recognize Egwene as Amyrlin, and present a unified front to influence Rand.

With what RJ has been building up with workers of the OP, he has to be settling the conflicts with the Towers. My guess at a working title for Book 10: Shattered Towers.


Timekeeper
Guardian of the Wheel

--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind.
--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both.

Question...

Posted by Myrelle Green on 23.06.01 02:43
What will happen to the resolve of the Red Ajah when they discover their whole reason for existance has vanished after Rand cleansed saidin? I think this will have a great effect on the Reds in TV once they hear of it.

Actually...

Posted by Hyam Kinch on 23.06.01 03:08
Given what we've seen of the Red Ajah so far, I don't think it's likely to have much if any affect on them. However, added to evidence of Reds "overreaching" in the past, it could provide enough reason for the other Ajahs to decide there is no longer a use for Red.

No, no, no!

Posted by the_wandering_Gambler on 23.06.01 20:19
Well, yes to the begining, but I don't think the black Ajah will leave meekly. Messena is in place with Alvahrian controlling the WHITE TOWER, aka the biggest suppository of *angreal in the world. The BA also will have the element of cordination and surprise if they discover the kidnappings soon enough. Along, with not being bound by those pesky oaths....Also, I don't think Messena would take the oaths and shortan her life by hundreds of years. I would agree that the battle for uniting the tower will be bloodless for Egwene, but I predict she will have to re-take the tower after gining support form Aes Sedi fleeing the carnage in the tower. Having the entire BA put out of comission would rob the DO of his main dreadlords, and we wouldn't want to see that. Overall, I think the sitters gaining control of everything would just be tooo simple.


Setzer
The Wandering Gambler

"'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li."
Sandman


question

Posted by Kane on 23.06.01 21:41
Is Alviarin Not a member off the hall and a sitter? as soon as the sitters find out she will and as soon as she finds out (if not sooner) Mesana Will. What Will happen?? AND OPEN AND BLOODY GET AWAY OR TAKEVER OF THE TOWER (trying anyway) BLOODY


" cogito ergo doleo."
Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire
Ecce potestas casei.

Wow.

Posted by Ruriha Sedai on 24.06.01 00:54
That is....wow. That is the best summation of the Tower conflict I have ever heard. And, it fits in with what I think will happen. *grins*
However, I think something, probab;y involving Halima, will happen to fulfill Min's viewing about SS having to stay close to Bryne, or both of them dying. Hopefully something suitably dramatic......


Ruriha Sedai
Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah
Officially On Holiday
Middle-Earth Kiwi
She Who Has Returned

Disagreement

Posted by luc_chiendelna on 25.06.01 03:08
"On a side note, I think that Mesaana will get snapped up somewhere in the process. She will swear the first oath, because she will be in a situation where she will have no choice, and be asked something like ‘are you of the Black Ajah,’ since she is not she will be able to truthfully answer no. She will then be released to help hunt, but instead she will sound the alarm for the Black Ajah and have Alviarin use her ability to travel to get the rest of the Black Ajah out of the Tower. It just stands to reason that the bad guys need their Dreadlords."

I do not agree about the "are you of the Black Ajah" qn, 'cos take note here, Mesaana is not of the Black Ajah, and she is a thousand times more skilled and faster than them all. She also treats them like tools and dogs to be used when she should so wish. So, if she were asked about being of the Black Ajah, she would be able to go "Hell bloody hell no! What sheepswallop!"


Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons

Prophecy

Posted by Cloric the Cleric on 01.08.01 18:04
[b]The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path. [/b]

I have two thoughts on this, and yes, since someone drug the Seanchan into it earlier, it does qualify

A) The tower has already broken. It WILL kneel to Rand ("Under this sign shall he conquer" - the ancient symbol for AS)

B) The tower has already broken, but the "forgotten sign" is Hawkwing's sigil. I know, I don't believe it either, but it is still a possibility.


One word:

Posted by Gandalv the Gray on 14.08.01 02:07
Wow.


Gandalv the Gray

Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends
Faithful servant of the Creator
Bringer-back of Moiraine
Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin


Right

Posted by Uno1 on 11.05.02 08:22
first of all there will be no flamin union between the black an white towers.1.ever since he had gotten flamin captured he never trusted aes sedai again and he said it himself i dont care if it is egwene.2.egwene hates asha'man and thinks the black tower was a bad idea.i agree(which is something i bloody ever do)that most black ajah will be rooted out.and egwene said it her flamin self that the war was going to be bloody.


Cusser of words.
Killer of flamin darkfriends.
Uno1

If there is a battle...

Posted by Frogboy4eva on 27.12.02 20:28
And I'm planning it, I would want to minimize Aes Sedai/Warder blood, Tower Guard blood, and collateral damage to the city, in that order.

I would gateway a circle of 13 into Elaida's study or her bedroom, shield her, and command her to stop the fighting. At the same time, gate more full circles all over the Tower. They can shield anyone they see until the fighting stops. Send about 40-50 sisters and possibly a hundred or so of Bryne's men to the *angreal storerooms. Send the rest of Bryne's army to the gates leading into the WT. Have them hold those gates, maybe with some sisters as needed, against anyone who comes in. This would let you, especially at night, give you around 350 AS, more if they bring the novices, performing a quick strike into a sleepy, tired WT, with 30,000 men making sure no one decides to come crash the party, i.e. Chubain and the Tower Guard. (Note: Alviarin wanted the Guard at 50,000 men, and likely got it that high. I don't think Bryne has more then 30-40 thousand.)

The Rebels can shield everyone in the Tower, get them to surrender, and then the Tower is reunited. (Perhaps while they shield everyone Pevara and Seaine will perform the BA tests.)

What will throw a wrench into this plan?

Mesanna and Aran'gar. Aran'gar may not participate, given that being in a battleground with hundreds of jumpy sisters shielding everything in sight is not a good place for a Forsaken to be. Mesanna could A) Gateway out, and start over. B) Get Alviarin, and figure out a way to evacuate the BA as well, giving the Shadow it's Dreadlords. C) Go for the *angreal cache and try to get a sa'angreal during the chaos. D) Let herself be captured/shielded, and remain in the Tower as her alter ego, continuing to lead the BA. E) Try to make a stand, and either die fighting, get shielded/stilled/executed, or kill Egwene or someone and run for it.

Mesanna is a practical and intelligent woman, but also hardheaded. She will likely attempt B) or C), maybe D). I think she is too stubborn to roll over and flee, and too smart to get killed. D) is a possibility, but with all hell breaking loose in the BA, she might attempt to run for it. (Hmm, what happens when Pevara/Seaine try to question her?)

I think she will do a combo of B and C. She will get the BA, try to take some *angreal, maybe get a few, then the AS will drive her off, and she will gate to Shayol Ghul with the BA. The Shadow has Dreadlords and some *angreal, so there will be a measure of balance at Tarmon Gai'don