Well, this theory isn’t really about using the Power to make that incredibly hot American Airlines Stewardess drop her tray of peanuts and suddenly follow you to the bathroom for some in-flight service with a smile. Maybe I’ll write that one later. No, the title of this post was just a shameless attempt to grab your eye, but if you’ll read on, you’ll find the title fits just perfectly.
This is in fact a more in depth look at what Onarishma’s post called "The Dynamic of a Channeler to Channeler Bond" and how it relates to the practice of Compelling a member of the opposite sex.
First off, I agree with most of the points Onarishma made in his theory. The relative strength in the Power of the Bonder compared to that of the Bonded (or lack thereof) has a direct relationship to the chance that the Bonded can be Compelled against their will and to the strength of that Compulsion. Now in WOT World (uhhh, I don’t like 'that' nickname either) Compulsion via the One Power - and likely through the Warder bond as well - seems to be much more effective on women than on men.
Male Channelers aside, there is ample evidence that men in general can be Compelled only through great skill and effort with the One Power. For now let’s look at the technique of Compulsion itself (without the Warder Bond). Remember Verin’s POV in the prologue of “The Path of Daggers”? She muses to herself that - “Distrust aside, men were very bad subjects, unfortunately. She could not understand why. Any strong personality might begin to question his own actions-or even forget doing them, which lead to another set of problems-but all things being equal, men were more likely to. Much more likely to.” Verin has had serious difficulty Compelling men in the past.
Now obviously Verin has very little ability in Compulsion, but I would venture to say she has more aptitude and experience than 95% of every other present-day Aes Sedai. Very few female Channelers (apart from the Forsaken) can hope to successfully Compel any man to do something he has great reluctance to do.
Now Graendal is surely one of the greatest Compulsionists of all time. She has had no trouble finding male pets to worship at her feet. These men, however, can’t channel. Now remember that after Rand killed Sammael she attempted to recover Saidar-attuned items from his possessions in Illian and had to flee before she was finished, when some Asha’men showed up to cart away Sammy’s stuff. She had called them “Al’ Thor’s puppies”. “Incredibly dangerous puppies”. Obviously she was not confident that she could Compel them and, I think, she was afraid they would kill her if she tried.
Also, as I’m sure someone has mentioned before, Lanfear attempted to Compel Rand into letting here see the Horn of Valere and he was not affected. I think most will agree with me that NOBODY can Compel Rand because he is too strong in the One Power. I think it has nothing to do with his being Ta’veren. He was simply much more powerful than Lanfear.
As for the reverse, there is very little evidence on which to guess at the degree of difficulty a Male Channeler would have in Compelling a woman (without the Bond). Rahvin certainly had an easy time of it, (even with Morgase; until she snapped out of it) but it is likely that he too was one of most skilled Compulsionists of all time. He is obviously not your typical Male Channeler on whom to establish supposition and any further debate on the ease at which the Asha’men can Compel Aes Sedai (without the Bond, at least) is completely academic. There is nothing that even resembles proof in the entire series for me base an assumption upon, along these lines, so I think I’ll leave it alone.
How does Forsaken-style Compulsion relate to Compulsion via the Warder Bond (a completely different situational practice)? Well, I believe the same natural gender-special dynamic can be applied to the Bond. From what I observe to be the principals of the World and the One Power I would propose that a Female Channeler bonding a man who can channel even the tiniest bit, will have a tremendous task before her in making him do anything beyond deferring. And this only when he feels he has the most chance of immediate survival when hiding out as a Warder for a time (as is the case of Corele and Damer Flinn). I do not think either Corele or Merise can expect anything more from their so-called “Warders” as result of their Bond.
This gender/strength dynamic is the reason Logain can command Toveine and Gabrelle so completely. He is much stronger than both put together, though even if he wasn’t I expect the result would be much the same.
Focusing only on Channelers for a moment, I believe that in addition to the natural susceptibility of women to be Compelled, and the natural superiority of men in strength of the Power, something about the way each sex channels is also a factor in why men will have an inherent advantage in Compulsion.
In order for a man to wield the Power he must SEIZE Saidin. He must FIGHT the seething avalanche of molten ice and freezing fire with every ounce of his being. He must CONQUER the raging inferno to a semblance of order or be destroyed utterly.
For a woman to touch the power she must EMBRACE Saidar. She must SUBMIT completely or she might as well try scooping up water with spread fingers. It is absolute SURRENDER that the woman must first attain to absorb the undulating ecstasy that is female half of the Power.
The man fights and conquers as the woman submits and surrenders. Perhaps this can be translated beyond the mere act of acquiring and holding the Power.
I would put forward that the very opposing practical and philosophical approaches between men and women toward the One Power will give men a psychological advantage when a contest of wills ensues. It will be men, with their more aggressive instincts reinforced every time they seize and battle Saidin, who will rediscover, or develop a new form of the science of True Compulsion as it was used in Ages past.
I don’t think this is a line of thought Jordan would really like to pursue, but I just throw it out there as one of the countless possibilities the Wheel and Fate could give life to. If current trends continue with Asha’men Bonding Aes Sedai into total submission, perhaps in the next Age to come it will be the Male Channelers who hold supreme power to balance the constant anxiety and fear of discovery men with the ability have lived with for the past 3000 years.
I hope not. I would hope the Wheel would have a gentler balance in store for a world so torn by war and destruction. But only one man can say for sure, and so far he does not seem too forthcoming with such information.
Well, my mad ramblings must finally come to end. I apologize for such “longwindedness” if that’s a real word. I thank all of you who actually made it all the way down here. Please don't be angry that I used such a cheap trick to entice you to read this post. I hope you found it somewhat interesting, if not nearly so much as the title implied.
Please give me your thoughts and theories as they will be much appreciated.
Until next time,
The Great Lord on the Jon
Burr says: It's a good theory. You've balanced your speculation quite nicely with relevant quotes and such. However, if you are really into this "Sex Compulsion" thing, I suggest you take it to chat. That is where you can most probably find more...um...researchers such as yourself.
Comments
Personally I think that one must have talent for Compulsion to be able to use Compulsion. So if person have strong talent for Compulsion (s)he can have better control over his/hers victims than person who has weaker talent. Experience also helps. For instance Graendal who was Mindhealer, and so has very strong talent for Compulsion, during AoL and has a lot of experience can control people better than any Asha'men. Strenght in OP also helps, if person have talent, but if person don't have that talent (s)he cannot use Compulsion at all. There is a possibility that sex is also important, but major factor to me is that talent for Compulsion. Average male is stronger that average female. So it is very difficult to find out if reason for better success of males is their sex or their strenght.
In fact I got a picture that during early books of WoT it was impossible to do anything with power unless person had talent for that thing, but it seems that RJ has changed rules. For instance at first only those people who had talent for Traveling could Travel, but now anybody who knows right weave and is strong enough to use that weave can Travel. Healing seems still depend on talent, so WOs cannot Heal anybody, but demand of talents is lower than during early books.
Another thing is that women who could channel fire should be very rare, but they don't seem to have any problems of using that. For instance in Dumai Wells all channeling women used weapons weaved with Fire and those weaves were very strong. Damanes could also use Earth weaves anytime they had to destroy something, so rules that said that women with strong power either in Fire or in Earth should be exceptionals have changed. Another thing is that in early books each woman should have affinity only in few powers and women who could use all 5 powers should have been very rare, but now almost any channeler could use either Earth, Fire, Spirit, Air or Water anytime without any problems at all. So RJ had changed that rule also.
Another thing is that women who could channel fire should be very rare, but they don't seem to have any problems of using that. For instance in Dumai Wells all channeling women used weapons weaved with Fire and those weaves were very strong. Damanes could also use Earth weaves anytime they had to destroy something, so rules that said that women with strong power either in Fire or in Earth should be exceptionals have changed. Another thing is that in early books each woman should have affinity only in few powers and women who could use all 5 powers should have been very rare, but now almost any channeler could use either Earth, Fire, Spirit, Air or Water anytime without any problems at all. So RJ had changed that rule also.
Another thing is that women who could channel fire should be very rare, but they don't seem to have any problems of using that. For instance in Dumai Wells all channeling women used weapons weaved with Fire and those weaves were very strong. Damanes could also use Earth weaves anytime they had to destroy something, so rules that said that women with strong power either in Fire or in Earth should be exceptionals have changed. Another thing is that in early books each woman should have affinity only in few powers and women who could use all 5 powers should have been very rare, but now almost any channeler could use either Earth, Fire, Spirit, Air or Water anytime without any problems at all. So RJ had changed that rule also.
Another thing is that women who could channel fire should be very rare, but they don't seem to have any problems of using that. For instance in Dumai Wells all channeling women used weapons weaved with Fire and those weaves were very strong. Damanes could also use Earth weaves anytime they had to destroy something, so rules that said that women with strong power either in Fire or in Earth should be exceptionals have changed. Another thing is that in early books each woman should have affinity only in few powers and women who could use all 5 powers should have been very rare, but now almost any channeler could use either Earth, Fire, Spirit, Air or Water anytime without any problems at all. So RJ had changed that rule also.
do you by any chance, stutter???
Da Mook
"You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are." LiterateDog to me, of course
"snoop elsewhere" -Pevara
It was never stated that women could NOT channel Fire and Earth. Meerly that they werent as good with it as they are with Wind/Air and Water.
Think about it this way. If a female channeler wanted to put out a fire, she would use Water on it. If a male channeler wanted to put out a fire, he would meerly suck the flames away with Fire. Femme-channelers cant do this ( remember back to TSR, when Egwene and Elyane think about one of the novices/Accepted who burns her arm trying to suck flames away with Fire ).
Any person who can channel can use any of the Five powers. " Talents " usually refer to a certain type of weave that the person is good with ( Moghedien, when she attacks Nyneave and almost kills her, thinks that if she had only been a little better at Compulsion her life wouldve been so much easier, and Graendal, a few times, says she was prolly the greatest Compulsionist in the AoL. Only one or two Asha'man can Heal, and not all Aes Sedai are good at it. Then theres the Kin woman who can bend a shield into a circle ).
If a woman tried to use the weave-attack the Asha'man used at Dumani Wells, they probably wouldnt be able to pull it off. They might be able to find a way to do the same thing, only woven differently, but weaving the exact same thing, with the same powers, for them is impossible ( remember that Saidin makes a Gateway by boring a hole, and Saidar makes two places the same ).
Basically, ALL CHANNELERS can use the Five Powers. Two channelers might be equal in power, or near to it, but they woudl have very different powers in weave's. One might be an exellent Healer, while the other can barely Heal a papercut. Men are most skilled with Fire and Earth. Women are most skilled with Air and Water. Men and Women are equally skilled with Spirit. However, Men are almost always stronger than women ( in the sense that it takes more to over-power them, more to match them. Rand can shield and toy with Egwene and Elayne, who are prolly in the top 10-Most-Powerful-Femme Channelers. The Forsaken might push them into the top 20, but their still two of the most powerful seen since the Age of Legends ).
on another note, it was stated in the original post that Lanfear couldnt Compulse Rand because he was so much more powerful in the Power than her. Think to FFH. Lanfear almost killed Rand ( true, she had an angreal, but even without that, she was still a very good match for her ).
Compulsion definetly isnt one of Lanfear's more powerful Talents ( id have to say sliceing saidin-weaves has to be her best Talent ). In fact, i dont even think she ever used Compulsion on Rand or anybody else. It might have been because it was almost impossible to do with Rand, it could be because shes not good at it, or it could just be because she prefers to talk to them and make them see how she see's without the use of the Power. Wheneve someone see's her ( well...before she died and all ) they always commented on how beautiful she was, which probably helped her think she could convince someone of something by just talking to them. She could've Compulsed Mat when he was in Tar Valon, since even a small use of Compulsion would've let he think one thing, and to use him, but she didnt. so.
Knave
Talents aren't so much requirements, not most of them at least, as they are aptitudes. Somebody with Talent for healing is better than somebody without the Talent. It's like real life: just because you don't have any talent whatsoever for art doesn't mean that you can't draw a recognizable house. There are Talents that are prerequisite to what you have the Talent for, for example foretelling, but those are rare among Talents. They can be likened to skill in computer programming. Somebody with no talent whatsoever for programming cannot make a good program (and it would be sheer luck if they could make a program at all). As the above guy said, the same goes for the 5 weaves: people have different aptitudes in each.
As for the theory, I mostly agree. I have to mention, though, that you shouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that Ta'veren might shield against compulsion. In fact, that would explain why Lanfear didn't compulse Mat (perhaps she's a great compeller, even against men, but all her enemies are immune. Poor thing
). After all, the explanation DOES make sense.
Your.Master 
i mostly agree with this theory & thought it was well written .but MAN pth litterally ate up the comment board.which is the part of the theory post i like.I like to hear other peoples thoughts but pth ate this comment up.while you had a good point id like it if you could not take up all 16 posts PLEASE!!!!! thanx peace favor your sword
uglykidrand
"peace favor your sword"
I think many of the Damane can wield Earth and Fire so well because that's all they were ever trained to do. Have we ever seen a damane heal? Yet almost every Aes Sedai can heal a bruise at the least, because it's part of their training. Egwene even says that she was prized for her ability to work with Earth, which is an instinctive aptitude. Moirane, too, seems to have greater strength with Earth and Fire than most female channelers (remmeber the earthquake in EotW?).
Wise Ones cannot heal because they never learned how, IMO. Asha'man who can heal have the talent for it and do it instinctively (Narishma, isn't it? I hope it wasn't the Forsaken, that would blow my theory here).
I definitely agree with the poster who said Talents are instinctive, whereas anyone with sufficient strength can 'learn' to do a weave, at least passably well. It's the difference between Rembrandt and someone who uses Rembrandt paints.
LTT
That does it. New rule if you're going to talk about gender issues you have to name the thread with the word gender. If you use the word SEX it HAS to involve sexual interaction. I will now have to come up with a theory involving sex to illustrate my point.
By the way great work dude.
Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.
I don't know how many people noticed, but the type of sex Compulsion you referred to (e.g. getting that "hot" stewardess to drop it and come to the lavatory with you) has already been performed on someone.
Remember Lan? Right. His bond now resides with Myrelle, who thinks it necessary to put her Warders "in the bed of a woman" (in her case, her own) in order to save them from the death of their previous Aes Sedai.
Now I can't honestly see Lan saying, "Yes, Myrelle, let's go off and do that--I don't
actually love Nynaeve, I only pretend because I want to see how she reacts and see if she loves me." In other words, Myrelle used their bond to Compel Lan into joining her for a little action usually reserved for husbands and wives.
What does everyone think?
"Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter."
"Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised."
LTT, it was Flimm (Flinn? can't remember) who could Heal. Narishima is the current wielder of Callandor. They are the only two Asha'man alive that Rand trusts, in part because Flimm could heal him.
Kaiser Karl, I got the impression that Myrelle had transferred the warder bond to Nynaeve, which would simplify matters. Besides, do you think Myrelle would do it more than once, after Nynaeve heard about it?
I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike
This theory would also help explain why the male a'dam Nyneave and Elayne found had 2 bracelets. I remember Moghedien explaining to Nyneave that 2 would lessen the bracelet wearer's chances of "catching" the male channeler's madness, but maybe it also has something to do with it being easier for a woman to control a man if she's linked to another woman.
men are more agressive (usually) its like hormonal or genetic or some such thing...
I can't remember the book, but when Nynaeve was in Tanchico I I think, the elements of the Compulsion weave are stated.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember all of them. There were three, and one was Water.
I do not think there are any gender bonuses or weaknesses other than that which you see in the Power. I think it is solely a matter of Channelers vs. non-channellers and Channelers vs. Channelers in both Compulsion and in Warder bond, and how strong they are. I think because Logain was stronger than the girls he bonded made a difference. Perhaps because men are stronger in the power that they usually got the better end of it, and so we are given the sense that the slant is due to gender itself rather than the power granted from that gender, which is almost the same thing, but not exactly.
-Morgase could not channel, or barely whicker a candle if at all, which would make Rahvin's control over Morgase a situation of channeler vs. non-channeler, rather than channeler vs. channeler, and I think should be struck as evidence for or against gender bias.
Speculation:
When I first read about a warder bond between two channelers, I thought back about weave inversion to conceal channeling. It would be interesting if the subjugated can reverse the direction of the bond to become the master, and vice versa.
Its been stated numerous times that Graendal is THE master of Compulsion. No one, not Rahvin, not Lanfear, not even Moridin is more skilled. But why?
Well, the answer is pretty obvious..
Compulsion is about more than just strength and weaves, its about knowledge. Graendal was one of the foremost, if not THE foremost, experts on matters of the mind. This is stated in the Guide and is reinforced by the fact that she, unlike many of the Forsaken, had earned the third name in the AoL (she was known as Kamarile Maradim Nindar). Not even Lanfear had earned a third name in the AoL. Obviously, you had to be of massive importance to receive a third name. So, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Graendal was the most premiere expert on matters of the mind, which would explain her Compulsion expertise as well. Compulsion is not merely about execution, its also about application.
Also, your only real argument against Graendal's skill comes from her running from the Asha'men. You should know that Graendal does not "do" direct confrontation, especially when it isn't on her terms.
One more thing:
Remember when Moggy and Cyndane showed up at Graendal's palace and Graendal threw them both under Compulsion? Although Cyndane was more powerful than Graendal, she still fell easily under her control. Even under stressful and tense circumstances, Graendal was able to control not only one powerful channeler, but two.
TALENT