The Gholam's Release

Posted by JVinnyHall on 24.08.01 13:08

I've been writing about this somewhat in the message posts, so I decided to bring it out to the Theory Board so I can get more feedback. The question is simply who or what released the gholam?

1) I went through a few cases. At first I really thought it was Moridin, because well ... he's the frickin' Nae'blis, so of course he's going to set off the worst weapon ever devised from the Age of Legends. But in the PoD, in that brief excerpt of Moridin looking over the entourage of Aes Sedai (Elayne and Nynaeve) he doesn't express any serious hatred towards them. However, in the next direct scene, the gholam emerges, and one) he feels the presence of the True Power, but can't quite put his finger on what it is, and two) he states that his master wanted to kill the women, when Moridin expressed no such vehemence. So this rules Moridin out.

2)Could've been Sammael but Sammy is DEAD. DEAD. DEAD. DEAD. Did I say that enough? RJ said he's dead, balefire in the face is death, getting screwed over like that is death. So that's that. The gholam said the man that controlled it wanted the women dead. And since Sammy can't communicate from the dead ... DEAD. DEAD. Dead.

3)Finally, comes Demandred. I think he was the only man still alive that was promised Nae'blis by the DO? Grandael was promised that, and a few others I believe (thanks again to that person in the message board ... could they help me out here too?) but thanks to my brief stint of clarity (and uncommon intelligence) I managed to snag this sentence on page 84 hardcover of the PoD:

"The one who commanded it wanted the man who wounded it dead perhaps as much as HE ( HEEEEEEEEE ) did the women, but the women were an easier target."

HEEEEEE. It said HE. That means no female Forsaken. So personally, I think it's Demandred. I'd like to hear some feedback!!

Bad Ash says: Ok, I need help from the wotmania faithful on this one. I posted this theory before coffee, reread it, and now I have problems with it. I seem to remember one of the Forsaken, and not Demandred, reminiscing about opening a stasis box and having a gholam pop out. I keep thinking Graendal, but I'm not sure. If so, it would make me lean more toward Sammael as being the "he", as Graendal and Sammael were working close together, or as close as Forsaken can be. The gholam may not know about Sammy's untimely demise yet. Sorry, my books are all packed at home and I'm at work, so I can't check this myself.


Comments

Was Sammael really dead THEN?

Posted by Yubi on 24.08.01 14:23
I admit I am not fully certain in this question, with many memories from the books rather blurry. Still, what do you mean with "release of the Gholam". Has it somehow been imprisoned (not counting his stay in some stasis box ) AFTER arriving at Ebou Dar? Sammael said to Carradin something about sending some sort of help. There was also a quote about Sammael finding a Stasis box (wasn't there?). And finally, the Gholam had arrived to Ebou Dar plenty of time before the demise of Sammael (who died at the end of CoS). We haven't seen the Gholam actually recieve any orders since then, have we? What am I missing that would make Sammael so impossible as the Gholam master (well, former, but still the latest one who ordered it).


Yubi

Disclaimer:
This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt.

Still Sammy

Posted by cynic79 on 24.08.01 14:44
I'm inclined to think it was Sammael too. Sammael showed an interest the other two boys (remember, he sent Melhindra to kill Mat). Demandred has not shown any such hostility towards Mat or Perrin. There is also the fact that the gholam must have been imprisoned, otherwise why wouldn't there be any mention of it before now? Sammael is the only one of the male Forsaken who we know had found a stasis box, so he still seems the most likely candidate. As for Sammael being dead, well, the gholam is still after Mat and the women, so maybe it is just following Sammy's old orders.


cynic79

Redid the comments

Posted by Bad Ash on 24.08.01 15:16
Help me out wotmaniacs.




Bad Ash

Sammael

Posted by zero on 24.08.01 15:59
As soon as the gholam appeared I assumed it was sent by Sammy. I didn't know that there was any question about it. Remember, right before it showed up, Sammy promised to send something to his DF searchs to deal with the aes sedai.

Sammael....

Posted by knave on 24.08.01 18:05
the Gholam probably is unaware of Sammael's untimely demise. He was most like sent through a Gateway to Ebou Dari with orders to find/kill Elayne, Aveindha, and Mat, and try to pick up any angreal he found. The gholam most likely contacted Sammael, or just sent local Friends of the Dark with them to Illian. When Rand became King of Illian, Ebou Dari was already under Seanchan control, so there wouldnt be much news from outside for local people.


Sammael is the one who found a stasis box. Its probably in CoS or LoC somewhere. Graendal comes to visit him, and notices all these different AoL items, including a highly illegal and violent game. Which meant the stasis box had belonged to a Friend of the Dark, which means he would have had acces to a gholam. i assume.


Knave


Check the common victims

Posted by Jackdaw Fool on 24.08.01 18:13
Somebody (I am too lazy and JUST got done rereading Lord of Chaos so I feel like I ran a marathon) check the common victims for a link to Sammael. Weren't Barthanes and Fel killed by the Gholam. Anyone else? Do they fit with the Sammael-as-Gholam-master theory?


Jackdaw Fool
Warder to Sexy/Evil WolfSister
The Bearded One

Fel is a wildcard

Posted by Bad Ash on 24.08.01 18:37
Fel was discovering the true nature of the Wheel of Time. His murder makes it seem more likely that Dark's pre-eminent philosopher and master sha'rah player, Ishamael aka Moridin sent him. This is a tough one, really throws in a monkeywrench.




Bad Ash

Sammael! Sammael! Sammael!

Posted by ÐragonForever on 24.08.01 20:38

LoC, chapter 23 "To Understand a Message". Scene: Graendal meets Sammael in Illian.
Graendal: "One might think you had looted a museum, Sammael."
Sammael: "Only a stasis-box".
...
Graendal: 'The one I found had rubbish.'
Sammael: "How sad for you."
Gr (thoughts): "He /had/ found something more than playthings and pretties."

aCoS, chapter 15 "Insects". Scene: Ebou Dar. Carridin says "Great Master, I saw Mat Cauthon."
...
Sammael thinks, then says "Your search [for angreal cache] is the most important thing, the /only/ thing, as far as you are concerned. Cauthon's death would be convenient, certainly, but not if it draws attention here. If it appears attention is already here, should he take an interest in your search, then he dies, but otherwise, he can wait."
...
Carridin says "Great Master, there are witches, Aes Sedai..."
Sammael says "I will send you... someone... to deal with these /Aes Sedai/. I almost wish I could see their faces."
</>
The only things that nearly wasted the AS were the gholam, and Black Ajah (Falion and Ispan).
The only thing that nearly wasted Mat was the gholam (and Tylin ).

So either Sammael found and sent the gholam at Mat/El/Ny, or he knows who did and gave the impression it was him in order to frighten Carridin, whom he considers as important as a bug. I know which one I think it is.




Warder to the fair Sophy



Kory: not forgotten.

Gholam was probably in stasis

Posted by maxell1701 on 24.08.01 20:49
The passage in POD in which the gholam appears, seems to indicate that the gholam was probably in a stasis box. Three lines in particular stand out. "The gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what it recalled was fogged and dim." "The world had changed, as it seemed, in the blink of an eye." Another line later: "But the gholam had not changed." The first quote seems to indicate that the gholam has recently just been released from what amounts to a 3000+ year slumber. My mind is a little foggy and dim after just eight hours of sleep so one can only imagine the feeling after 3000 years. The second two quotes, in particular, say to me that from the gholam's perspective time stood still. The only place that we know of where time stands still is in a stasis box. The only person that we know of to have found a stasis box is Sammael. It is unlikely that Sammael would give up control of the most dangerous weapon of all to any one, short of a direct order from the DO.

Umm...

Posted by Salmoneus on 26.08.01 15:12
Of course, we're assuming there is only one gholam.
Let's look at it:
Gholam appears for a prolonged length of time in Ebou Dar, sent to capture angreal, and to kill Aes Sedai and Mat. This one is almost certainly sent by Sammael.
On other side of continent, Gholam attacks kill first Barthanes and then, -a year? more?- later, a second kills Fel, in the same city.

Barthanes: involved with darkfriends, Fain, the dagger, the Horn: as are Lanfear and Ishamael. Not involved with Sammael.
Fel: involved with the philosophical basis of a plan to defeat the shadow. Now, I could be wrong, but Sammael - an athlete and general - doesn't strike me as a man to be overly concerned with the philosophical side of things.
Moridin/Ishamael, on the other hand, a former profesional philosopher and the Dark One's Head of Long-Term Strategy, does.
This leads to to believe that Moridin/Ishamael is the most likely commander of the Cairhien gholam. From the perspectives we have of both Moridin and the gholam in Ebou Dar, it seems unlikely that Moridin is commanding that one. Consequently, it is not likely that they are the same: totally different targets and probable employers.

Good point

Posted by Bad Ash on 27.08.01 12:36
It is quite possible that we are dealing with two different creatures here, and as such it would also seem that they have two different masters.




Bad Ash

Number of Gholam

Posted by maxell1701 on 28.08.01 04:41
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that there were only six gholam created, three men and three women. For the life of me I can't remember where I read that though. Although if I remember correctly, that means that there were only six gholam that were ever created. We know that at least one of the six has survived to this day and age and we are quite certain that it did so through the use of a stasis box. The question that remains is, did the gholam need the stasis box to survive since the AOL or are the gholams immortal? Knowing how difficult they are to kill, if they are immortal then it is more than likely that the majority of them are still out there somewhere. However, if they do eventually grow old and die, and I think that they do, then what are the odds of more than one finding their way to a stasis box, surviving over 3000 years and being found by one of the forsaken. Although knowing RJ and his penchant for balance, there is probably a female gholam out there we have not yet met.

a response to Salmoneus and maxell1701

Posted by Jim on 28.08.01 13:29
First off, I don't think that Barthanes was killed by a Gholam, mainly because if there had been one there wouldn't it have more likely been sent after someone like Rand or Verin? It seems likely that Trollocs killed him, the scene after his murder is similar to the prison in Fal Dara after Fain escapes. Other than that I agree with the fact that it appears that Sammael is an unlikely canidate to have ordered Fel's death, but perhaps the DO knew he had a Gholam and ordered him to send it at Fel first and then later Sammael sent it to Ebou Dar.

To maxell1701, you're right about the number of Gholams but I'm not so sure about their mortality. They feed on blood and have no bone structure and are resistant to the OP. There doesn't appear to be any evidence that they are mortal, other than there aren't many running around, unless they're hiding really well. Although it is hard to kill them, it seems likely that most of them were killed during the Breaking, otherwise someone would surely know of them, and since Aes Sedai are not aware of their existance it's pretty safe to say that no one is. I doubt there are more than two that have survived, but I think there is only the one.

Jim


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Hi Everybody!

Posted by metallica-man2 on 28.08.01 15:36
I would just like to point out that not only did sammael say that it would be a RISK that a gholam may pop out of a box (in an attempt to taunt graendal) but also that as bad ash says, its a distinct possibility that gholam doesn't know sammy's . So there. I don't know if any of this was already posted because i have not yet read the comments. sincerely,
sir- off at smileys


the lover of light and wisdom
the all-seeing eye
the wandering wotmaniac

I'm an Idiot!

Posted by metallica-man2 on 28.08.01 15:54
I just submitted a post on this blackboard, and suddenly felt compelled to state that.....barthanes and fel were most likely not killed by any form of gholam. I say this because while Barthanes and fel were albeit killed in an extremely violent manner, i dont believe they had the trademark of a gholam-killing. That trademark is......a less corpse. Gholam feed off , and from what we've seen drink the from those that they are assigned to kill, or from those that they kill on their own. If Barthanes and fel were killed by a gholam it would have drinken their , This leads me to believe that they were killed by someone else [possably ishy/moridin himself wielding the true power(he did that as ishy too)].

I would also like to point out that just about anyone could be a gholam including a supporting character, due to the fact that there is no obvious sign that what you are looking at is a gholam (unless it happens to have a fox imprint burned into it). sincerely,
metallicaman


the lover of light and wisdom
the all-seeing eye
the wandering wotmaniac

To metallica-man2

Posted by maxell1701 on 29.08.01 06:54
There is no real proof that the gholam killed Barthanes. All we know of his death is that his servants found him torn to pieces in his bedchamber with his head stuck on a pike over the fire place. Herid Fel though, is another matter altogether. RJ states in the epilogue of LoC that the gholam killed Fel. This is one of those rare times that RJ comes out and leaves absolutely no doubt as to what has happened. Of course we are not entirely sure who sent the gholam, I guess we can't expect him to tell us everything.

Where was Fain?

Posted by Jeremias on 29.08.01 20:00
Where was Fain when Barthanes was killed?

A gruesome killing of someone who was a tool of the DO is something that Fain seemed to like (eg crucifying Myrddraal), so Barthanes is not necessarily a gholam victim.
That's still not to say that there aren't 2 gholam, especially as there isn't conclusive proof that gholam can't be travelled to somewhere else (though unlikely, given their nature).


Jeremias

Osan'gar!

Posted by raolyn on 30.08.01 10:17
I thought this was a no-brainer! Aginor created the Gholam . . . the Gholam first appears when it kills Herid Fel, in LOC, which is right around the time that Os'Angar & Aran'gar appear . . . which we all know are Aginor & Balthamel, respectively.

I never speculated that it would be anyone else . . .

it was Sammael.....

Posted by ghetto bird on 01.09.01 18:36
Read all the meetings between Sammael and Graendal- I think the particular one is during one of the little visits to the Shaido Wise Ones, but I'm not certain. Anyway, in one of them, Sammael mentions finding two stasis boxes- one with all the nice stuff inside, and another that nearly god him killed. That would be the gholam; I'm almost certain. You also have to remember was that Sammael was not necessarily controlling the gholam (I think he may have been taking orders from both Sammael and Moridin), and that Sammael did not necessarily give the orders shortly before the attack. They could've been given weeks in advance and the gholam simply wanted the element of surprise, or some such.

Responding to various

Posted by Salmoneus on 02.09.01 13:34
Fel we know was killed by a gholam - not only is there the bit referred to earlier where this is stated, but I seem to recall that the killer slipped under the door -liquid gholam.
I admit that Barthanes may not be a gholam attack, it could just be trollocs or Fain, but i think he was a gholam-kill. Fel and Barthanes both died in the same gruesome way in the same building. This suggests it was by the same killer.

On the subject of the likelyhood ofgholam-survival: i think gholam are immortal, so they could still be wondering around. But, despite being hard to kill, not many would still be active, since while they may not have been killed, having a mountain dropped on their heads or suchlike would certainly incapacitate them for a few millenia.
Also, there could be more than one in a stasis box, without it being a great coincidence: when packing a stasis-box, the Dark Side is likely to have stuffed in a few of their ultimate killers.

I like it a bit.

Posted by Lord Savaunt on 04.09.01 17:23
I agree with the idea that Sammy L being dead may not be current knowledge to the Golum er I mean Gholam.


Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.

It was Sammael

Posted by drgnrbrn316 on 23.10.01 14:58
Graendal's thoughts of Sammael finding something of interest in that stasis box, not to mention Sammael sending Carridin "someone" to help him take care of the women suggest that he was the sender of the Gholam.

Comment for you Jim

Posted by shai`tan on 06.11.01 03:58
One of your points is that the Aes Sedai are not aware of Gholams,
how do you suppose they could:
1 a gholam look just like a normal person
2 any Aes Sedai who managed to find out likely had a hard time
just getting away vith her newfound knowledge........


I`ve got Dyslexia
Surely the reason for my spelling errers

Well... why a Forsaken?

Posted by Lancelot on 10.11.01 00:46
There is one other person around who _might_ have at somepoint had access to a stasis box. Padan Fain. This is purely unsubstansiated, off-the-top-if-my-head-crap, but who knows? Padan Fain wants the women dead, because the are _close_to_Rand. Especially Elayne. He wants to hurt Rand badly. He doesn't want to kill Al'Thor. He wants to kill every one he loves, and then kill some of them infront of him, then burn down his village, then... well, you get the idea. Now, the only question is, did Padan Fain have access to a stasis box? Who knows! He was very preoccupied with hunting for the daggar... could there have been a stasis box in the Tower, and they thought it was just another Ter'Angreal? Again, who knows? Not I. Just a Theory.

Lancelot

It was sammael

Posted by methos_01 on 30.12.01 19:49
It was Sammael who released the Gholam he told Graendal that he found a stasis box and by what was in it it belonged to darkfreind all this happened in LoC and at the end of the book Herid fel is the frist person to be killed by the Gholam, and Sammie is not dead yet then there is the fact that the Gholam is in Ebou dar at the same Nynaeve and Elayne are and looking for the same thing and Sammael told Graendal that he was looking for a "cache of angreal" and I'm more than willing to bet that his "cache" is the same one with the bowl of winds.

so that is why I think it was Sammie who Released the Gholam


*bows* By your leave, mother, I will stand, the watch is not done.

It was sammael

Posted by methos_01 on 30.12.01 19:50
It was Sammael who released the Gholam he told Graendal that he found a stasis box and by what was in it it belonged to darkfreind all this happened in LoC and at the end of the book Herid fel is the frist person to be killed by the Gholam, and Sammie is not dead yet then there is the fact that the Gholam is in Ebou dar at the same Nynaeve and Elayne are and looking for the same thing and Sammael told Graendal that he was looking for a "cache of angreal" and I'm more than willing to bet that his "cache" is the same one with the bowl of winds.

so that is why I think it was Sammie who Released the Gholam


*bows* By your leave, mother, I will stand, the watch is not done.

Good Idea but...

Posted by Dragons Wriath on 22.05.02 19:54
Good theory but some mistakes. First Sammy was never balefired, the ail chick was and when Rand looked Sam was gone, suposedly killed by mashadar. So he could still be alive. Second, you didn;t include Halima in your male catagory. Though physicly female she still channels Sai Din, the gholam can probably tell the difference between Sai Din and Sai Dar. So he would think she was disguised or somthing.


Dragons Wriath
"And can you by no drift of circumstances
Get from him why he puts on this confusion
Grating so harshly all his days of quiet
With turbulant and dangerous lunacy" - Hamlit

Oh...NO!!!

Posted by Rekesalat on 28.05.02 18:00
RJ has CLEARLY STATED THAT, to use the exact words, "Sammael is toast. Mashadar killed him." This is not a point to be debated, when RJ so clearly states something, it is that way. However, he may(most likely) be resurrected by the DO, and probably be in a mindtrap under control of Moridin/Ishy/Coolest character EVER! And well...I believe Moridin has control of one gholam and sammy *had* control over one gholam and ordered it to find a cache of angreals and to kill Elayne, Avi and Mat. The gholam followed these orders even after Sammys death(or he may not know about it...).


Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...

Moridin has a stasis box

Posted by Astorex on 09.06.02 19:53
Look, Moridin must have access to a stasis box. See what he uses: Fan cloth, heart boxes, a original sha'rah game and, most likely, there was a gholam in there. Most likely, it buried around Shayol Ghul, waiting for Ishamael to be reborn as Moridin. This guy is a real long-term planner, you know. One created to kill male channelers, most likely a female. He knew the Dragon would be male so why bury a gholam to kill Aes Sedai. Ishamael set up the Black Ajah for that line of work.

Sammael sent it.

Posted by Dreadlord Taim on 12.11.02 04:03
In COS Sammael tells Carridin (in Ebou Dar) that he would send him "someone" to deal with Elayne and the Aes Sedai. He goes on to muse that he "wished he could see the look on their faces" hinting that they cannot stop this assassin. Later, the gholam attacks Mat and Elayne in Ebou Dar, and even says he has orders to kill Elayne. This is a no-brainer. It will be interesting to see if another Forsaken regains control of the gholam, and gives it new commands concerning Mat or other heroes.

I most vehemently agree*NM*

Posted by Mazrimbum on 31.01.03 10:31
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gholam biz

Posted by jugador on 12.03.03 10:15
i always thought that sammael had found the stasis box, released the gholam and done whatever else nonsense, and then was iced by rand...? so now the gholam is a loose cannon, unless someone collars it, which means it can pop up all over and create cool plot happenings, like um, killing everyone except mat, or being defeated in new ways which would be cool too...could a random forsaken just take control of a gholam?

stasis box?

Posted by shaidar haran90 on 09.03.04 19:08
i dont think the gholam ever got put in the stasis box at all. if you remember from i'm pretty sure PoD, when the seanchan questioner guy questions that military dude, the dude notices a scar on his face. could it be the scar from mat's medallion? i dont know it's been a while since i read through it. anyway, they also say his descendents must have come with luthair across the aryth ocean. i believe the gholam/seanchan questioner guy came across himself and has been under multiple identities since then, living undercover and waiting for more orders from the DO.
just a thought, tell me what you think

Gholam can't Travel

Posted by Moon-Hawk on 14.11.05 14:28
Well, we know the Gholam can't Travel, right? At least, I'm pretty sure that it's Shadowspawn. And we learned from Rand/Lews Therin that Shadowspawn can't survive going through a gateway, right? So if it wants fast travel it has to use the Ways.
Hmmm, maybe that's how they'll kill it.