Theories From the Fourth Age

Posted by Telvin on 06.01.02 07:23

By looking through all the books and checking out the little snippets of text from the fourth age that are sometimes at the start or end of the novels, I have formulated some theories. Some of these are pretty basic but I felt that they needed to be stated anyway.

First, lets start with a real basic one. Rand wins. I have no idea if he survives or not, but the DO is defeated, or there would be no writers to write about Rand, or if there were, they would have some really nasty things to say about him.

Now on to one that is similar but still needs to be stated in its own right. Rand doesn't break the world, or at least not in the same way that LTT did. Rand may destroy a few countries and kill off a third of the world's population, but he leaves enough intact to rebuild what is already there. If this was not true, he would be remembered the same way that LTT was (remember LTT did save the world from the DO, he just happened to destroy most of it in the process). Quite the opposite, Rand is seen as a savior of the world. A couple of writers mention that he brings change and destruction, but not on a scale large enough to be considered 'Breaking the World'.

Third, Rand does manage to merge all the nations. The quote at the end of book 5 is "Binding nations to him. Making one of many." which is pretty clear. It also seems that this coalition doesn't hold up for long because the quotes in the books are signed as coming from at least two different nations. This may be because Rand is dead and there is none else to hold the nations together, or it may just be that once the last battle is one he just doesn't care anymore.

Fourth, I do not think that there will be any huge wielding of the power in the battle for Tar Valon. If there is, it will not be the building flattening type because the "Let The Lord Of Chaos Rule" is from Great Arvalon, which is almost certainly Tar Valon with a shortened name. If There really was a large scale battle with Aes Sedai involved, well, even if the tower isn't a tenth as powerful as it was a thousand years ago, there is still enough firepower on both sides to easily wipe our the city and possibly the island.

Now on to some more speculative theories. These have no real impact on the third age and deal with the fourth age instead.

First, It is possible that there is a return to the Old Tongue at least among the more cultured people. This is because a number of the quotes in the books have Old Tongue titles as well as common ones, suggesting that they were written in the Old Tongue. Since the Trolloc Wars, everything has been translations from the Old Tongue into common. Currently, most nobles can barely understand a few words of Old Tongue there would need to be a much higher literacy rate before anything would be written in the old Tongue.

This leads into the second one that deals mainly with the fourth age in that there seems to be a renascence period after the Last Battle with importance given to songs and poetry. The title of Songmistress is one example. Perhaps this means that the Tinkers will find their song ( I am going out on a limb on that one, I know, but I can always hope can't I )?
I have chosen to ignore the "Let the lord of chaos rule" quote because there is just not enough information about it. The only two things that I am willing to hazard a guess about is that Andor takes over Cairhien (I seem to remember that there was something about hills in either the original name of the city or the flag, but I am too tired to search through 13000 pages of text for a reference that I might be mistaken about). The other thing is that the three people in the third line are people who oppose Rand, because they are told to "Let the lord of chaos rule". Since this is also what the DO tells his followers, I assume that this means that these people are DF or are controlled by DF. I think that Elaida is the "Blind woman" because she is the Amyrlin Seat, whose titles include Watcher over the seals, a responsibility that she is in no position to carry out due to Alviarin.

Thats all I have. Hope you like.

Telvin

Moridin_2000 says: Some really good stuff here, especially that part about the Songmistress and the finding of the Song.

I don't think that Great Arvalon is Tar Valon though. It has kept it's name for nearly three thousand years and Elaida Foretold they will become stronger than ever. Then again, I could be wrong



Comments

Great theory...

Posted by ursidae on 06.01.02 09:16
... I agree with most of what you say.
But I think you should have included exact quotes and book references.



För övrigt anser jag att Mordor bör förstöras.

Moridin...

Posted by Llaydwhonn Gaidin on 06.01.02 17:11
...why should the name of TV not be changed to something "greater" after a possible unification of the two Towers? Just a thought.


Llaydwhonn Gaidin
The disguised Asha´man
Still unbonded
Dedicated to the Black Ajah

Well....

Posted by Moridin_2000 on 06.01.02 17:22
That's what it's name is, and has been for an extremely long time, you can hardly call it something else. I don't see any special reason why it would drop the T and Tar and Valon would join to make Arvalon. It's even a stretch of the imagination to rename it Great Tar Valon. Remember that it's the name of the city that changes it's name, not the White Tower.

Also Tar Valon means Tower Guard or Guard Tower in the Old Tongue. They probably wouldn't forget that.

But I did say that I could be wrong


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SURELY...

Posted by Three In A Boat on 06.01.02 17:24
...Great Arvalon is Tar Valon, it exemplifies Jordan's idea of how time can change names etc (al'Thor=Arthur etc). However, I don't see how the fact that the changed name still exists means that there won't be a large battle with the One Power. I don't personally think there will be, but the name change could have come about because the city is destroyed and rebuilt.

Here's a crazy idea, perhaps the name changes like this:

1. The Black Tower is destroyed, the Asha'man eventually move into Elaida's palace once relations begin to grow between the male and female channelers.

2. Elaida's palace is still called the Black Tower, whether intentionally or just because people got used to calling the Ashaman's home that. This means there is a Black and White Tower in existance.

3. Some wiseguy coins the phrase "Gray Tar Valon" which quickly catches on, as Tar Valon which was previously white is now gray because black was mixed in.

4. Over time the name sticks and, as Jordan has shown, names change either through hearing the name slightly wrong or stories being told in different ways. Some people think they hear Great Arvalon rather than Gray Tar Valon and tell that story.

5. This story soon becomes the most well known so the name spreads further and eventually, over quite some time, it becomes the city's name.

I've never actually examined this quote before, but it's certainly interesting:

"The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

-Chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age"

I can't really add to your idea of Elaida being the blind woman, but there's the quote for anyone who wants to make anything of it.

Hmmm.. lots of cool stuff here

Posted by Lord Savaunt on 06.01.02 18:20
I must point out however that Tar Valon becoming Great Arvalon would be a lenghtened name not a shortened one. Youre essentially adding Grea to the pre-existing Tar Valon.

By the way 'The Lions Sing and the Hills take flight' could mean that Andor stands strong at TG, but Cairheinin cowers back. Then there's 'the moon by day and the sun by night' I always thought of this as a refference to Rand and Tuon. Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, while Rand is he who comes with the dawn and the Lord Of Morning Reborn. Perhaps Tuon will bring about a great strike by the Seanchan during the day, and Rand will make his big manuver at night.

If Elaida is the blind woman, then perhaps the Leader of the Children of the Light is the deafman. After the white cloaks are notorious for not listening to reason. That leaves the Jack Daw Fool. Perhaps Mat who's played the part of the fool so often would fill this roll. Then again maybe it's Masema. Or another way to look at it is that it's not about any specific people.


Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.

Me again

Posted by Telvin on 06.01.02 23:58
In the books, Tar Valon has been refered to as Great Tar Valon.

I am not saying that the name change happens any time soon. For all we know, the quote could come another 3000 years in the future. After all, the snakes and foxes rhyme survived that long.

P.S. As it is a child's rhyme, it should not be taken too literally. After all, 'Little Red Riding Hood' is about a Pedophile and There are a number about the Black Plague that are still taught today is such a garbaled form that it is impossabe to tell.


Telvin

Where is it called Great Tar Valon?

Posted by Moridin_2000 on 07.01.02 07:19
But the reason it wouldn't change from Grey Tar Valon in the first place is that EVERYONE has heard of Tar Valon. Even if one person hadn't (Seanchan or Aiel) the rest of the world would say 'Actually it's Grey Tar Valon, not Great Arvalon'. And I would say that the history of the founding of the Black Tower at Tar Valon would be a major historical event like the founding of White Tower.

Could there ever be a Why Tower?


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Well

Posted by Three In A Boat on 07.01.02 10:03
Why has Cairhien's name changed then? Surely that's a big enough city. Why will al'Thor eventually be confused with Arthur? Surely enough people in the world know his name to correct each other. Why will Artur Paendrag Tanreall and Rand al'Thor later be mixed into one character, Arthur Paendragon (King Arthur)? Surely that's a ridiculous idea, such well known names from by thoasands of years could be mixed up, could they?

It's all because stories or rumours change ever so slightly at every telling, over a lifetime you might not see much of a difference, but after hundreds of years stories and names can be markedly different.

interesting...

Posted by errantrogue on 07.01.02 13:28
i am getting allusions here (and elsewhere) that perhaps Jordan is setting up the WoT as an alternate earth such as Tolkein did? is that what the above are goig after with changing names to fit such as with the King Arthur inferance, the Odin/Mat theories ive heard, and the Seanchan perhaps being melded into the Shawnchin, then Chin?


Can you see the line where the water ends?
Draws itself off into oblivion...

Cairhien

Posted by Moridin_2000 on 07.01.02 14:35
Had a really long name in the Old Tongue, Al'cair'rahienallen. Since people stopped speaking the Old Tongue it's too hard to remember. It was shortened for the same reason Los Angeles was. Tar Valon is simple to remember.

As for Artur, Jordan only used that influence. Artur Hawkwing isn't King Arthur. I don't reacall anyone ever saying that they will ever be mixed into one character.



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You don't understand

Posted by Three In A Boat on 07.01.02 14:59
RJ is basically saying this (he never actually said this, I'm just demonstrating, but it's one of his 2 main themes in the series): We think we know the truth about King Arthur and Christ and everything else I use in this way in the books, but stories change over time. I'm demonstrating that by showing what might have really happened and how it's been twisted over time.

It's like that game you play (it's called Chinese Whispers where I live, might be different elsewhere) where you whisper a phrase to someone and carry on in a circle till you get to the end and you find that it's changed through the course, although everyone thinks they said exactly what they heard. It's SUCH a main theme in the series that it's pretty amazing to me that you could doubt Great Arvalon is Tar Valon twisted over the years.

Of course Hawkwing and Rand are both from King Arthur. They certainly have other influences, but they definitely both come from that source too. Let's take the elements from Rand and Hawkwing that mix into King Arthur:

al'Thor = Arthur
Artur = Arthur
Paendrag = Paendragon (Arthur's surname)
Dragon = PaenDRAGON
Only Rand's hand could draw the sword Callandor = Only King Arthur's hand could draw Excalibur
Artur was known as the High King = The Welsh especially among other see King Arthur as High-King of Britain.

We are clearly meant to see how time and stories twisting ever so slightly everytime they're told will mix these two characters, who are VERY famous at the time the books are set, into one character. In the same way Tar Valon, which is very famous at the time the books are set, will also change to Great Arvalon.

Thanks

Posted by Telvin on 07.01.02 20:49
Thank you for summing up my point about Arvalon.

It is strange though, that none of my other points are being metioned at all, let alone debated.

Normally anything with as little evidance as the finding of the song has at least a mention, or people who have evidance for or against.


Telvin

Wait!

Posted by Rand alTOR on 08.01.02 14:04
I wish I could have read this theory before wotmania was deluged with all these theories. Now probably no one will even read this comment.

Anyway, we are all missing a significant clue here. That clue is "Tamyrlin". It is rather interesting how the 'T' was dropped on that name to become "Amyrlin". Maybe when we discover the reason for that change, the reason for dropping the 'T' in Tar Valon will become clear.

Don't Worry

Posted by Telvin on 10.01.02 09:32
Don't worry, I read your post.


Telvin

a bit further

Posted by ji on 13.01.02 16:40
lets just say Tar Valon becomes the Great Arvalon. That sure sounds a lot like Avalon. wasn't that the island...
...interesting.

Didn't RJ say his favourite film was "Excalibur"

Posted by spudman on 03.02.02 18:29
Maybe that was a hint, and in other prophecies, it says that Rand IS the land. Just like Arthur.

For those who mention that the white tower must stay I say this, if it is a wheel of time, then therefore for the tower to be built, it must have been destroyed at some point.

I never thought about pendragon - dragon. Perhaps that is the only reason he is called that.

Interesting

Posted by Randwashere on 08.03.02 16:17
I think they whole debate over the renaming is quite interesting, and i think it is definately possible. It is also possible the Tar Valon is destroyed, either by Aes Sedai, vying for control, or for the new dreadlords. Perhaps after TG, a center is built for all channelers, and they name it the Great Arvalon in reference to the former Tar Valon.

Also, I think we must remember that a lot of things change at the end of an age. Even if the world isn't broken, I think many things may change. Maybe male channelers, having joined forces with female channelers, will refuse to associate themselves with Tar Valon because of its history of stilling men, and insist that the name is changed. And female channelers, anxious to forget the past when male channelers, will agree.

Good work on the Grey Tower thing, three in a boat. I, for one, thought that was clever.


Pronounced: "Rand was here"

Dropping T's

Posted by CurtisRWC on 15.03.02 00:18
Tar Valon to Arvalon or Tamyrlin to Amyrlin, it all has to words becoming softened over heavy use. "T" is a very easy sound to soften, or altogether drop. Think about it the next time you say "true" or "tree." Chances are, depending on your local accent or how well you enunciate, you might say something closer to "chrue" or "chree." Of course, this would take thousands and thousands of years to be accepted as "proper"

and again...a bit further

Posted by Nameless Maiden on 31.03.02 20:06
Hmmm, Amyrlin...sounds a lot like "Merlin" doesn't it..?

The Lands United

Posted by sandonia on 23.04.02 01:01
This is the first time I've commented so here we go,

Rand will unite tthe lands under him and under one direct rulership, what form this rulership will take I'm not sure. Furthermore I think this inification will survive his death.Why?? My reasoning is that in the age of legends, war was unknown and swordmanship was a sport. For war to be unkown it means there can only be one central governing body, otherwise war will eventually happen. Carrying on with the Arthur theme, if you look in the legend there is a time of peace when all of Britain is unified under Arthur, however I belive that the entirety of Arthur's reign is reflected in the wheel of time, and that each age reflects a period of time in Arthur's reign. Anyway just a thought.....

What about Moiraine as Merlin? She fits the part

Posted by wismail on 02.05.02 16:20
Isn't it just as likely that Tar Valon will be destroyed and rebuilt? After all, there are a lot of references in the book about Tar Valon being razed, and the earth salted.

I don't think Tar Valon will survive TG, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is rebuilt as Avalon, I mean Arvalon.

I've always known the parralel between Hawkwing and King Arthur, but I never made the connection between Al'Thor. I really enjoyed this post

Differing Opinion

Posted by Jasin Nateal on 07.05.02 09:50
I had always been of the opinion that the prophecy snippets found at the beginning and end of the books were not from the Age after Rand, but of an age before. Who is to say that Age 3 is after Age 2, it could be after 4. There is nothing of that in the books, though. I always saw these as prophecy...and prohpecy, by definition, has to come before the event, not after.

Thoughts on Great Arvalon

Posted by I am Nynaeve on 13.06.02 09:01
Maybe the change of name indicates that much of the city IS destroyed as part of Tarmon Gaidon- and they build a new city around what's left, re-naming it.


I am Nynaeve
Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah
The Ring of the Malkieri Kings
Narg lives!
Dammit my eye's on fire!

So there's a big battle

Posted by Memnoch Sedai on 15.06.02 19:32
and Tar Valon is destroyed. Yet not the island--so, after everything, the city is rebuilt. There's this habit to, when you remake or improve upon something, do the same to the name. So Tar Valon becomes Great Tar Valon, then eventually Great Arvalon, eliminating the repeated "T". A simmilar thing happened when Aemon's Field became Emond's Field, which we've seen happen already in the series.

Love the Renaissance idea. Perhaps the Old Tongue will become a Latin of sorts--used in the higher arts and sciences, though not spoken every day. Of course, I'm still amused that the Seanchan, Sea Folk, Aielmen, and Sharamen, not to mention the entire wetlands, all speak the same language after thousands of years, when a relatively small space like Europe in our world naturally developed at least 5 major languages. But whatever

Btw...this is kind of a digression, but has anyone else noticed that RJ says in his shpiel at the beginning of each book that the current age was "called the Third Age by some", not that it's definately the Third Age? Perhaps since the people of the time only remember the Age of Legends and that rumored Age Before, they assume this is the Third Age. Perhaps it's really the sixth, or even seventh--which would mean the Fourth Age already happened, and these writings are simply old, not to come from the future.

Just food for thought...


Memnoch Sedai
Devish Green
Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac
She who is very good At being very bad
Member of the English Quisition
Sax is life....the rest is just details

Jackdawl fool

Posted by childofthesky on 29.07.02 13:30
I think perhaps this refers to Logain or another False Dragon. Since he was set up by the Red Ajah he could be counted as a fool.

GOOD, BUT NO!

Posted by Aviendhalar on 27.08.02 18:13
I don't agree with your "making one of many" thing. Although I'm all for Rand having ALL the nations behind him, it might not happen. And even if he does, you have no concrete evidence to proove that. Let me disect that phrase for you, "Many" just means many,(as in several) "Many" is NOT an adjective for "all". So while you have found proof that he will succeed in binding several nations to him, you have non that suggests he will unite all the nations. Get it?!

Tar Valon - Arvalon - Avalon?

Posted by Daughter of the Sun on 05.10.02 23:58
Just spotted that connection reading this theory. In Arthurian legend, Avalon was a remote island where women lived who could do magical deeds. Tar Valon is an island. Robert Jordan really did use mythology with that one, since Hawkwing (who represents King Arthur) had such troubles with Tar Valon witches, and the people of Avalon supposedly helped destroy King Arthur. Very cool.


Am I a star beneathe the stairs?
Am I a ghost upon the stage?
Am I your anything?

Not Old Tongue but something else...

Posted by Arette Sedai on 14.11.02 06:05
In Old Tongue word Dragon is aman, but in Fourth Age the book called the Cycle of the Dragon is Charal Drianaan te Calamon. So it's not the same language.

some issues

Posted by dacole on 11.06.03 12:10
ok first the quotes are from before from an age that some called the fourth, they are prophecy. Parts of the cycle of the dragon were written in the fourth age, but these are treated as prophecy in the books. Perhaps they were counting from a different event we didn't always date our years and days from the birth of christ (even after he was born it took a long time for the world to change) and some places in the east still don't (china for example). As for the combining into one person, that would have to mean that this world is an earlier version of ours...something that is quite ridiculous (the next time you see anyone useing the one power let me know) yes he used arthur christ ect as sources but in his world they don't exist and never will. Especialy since this is the last time the third age appears see quotes by balmazon where he says this turning is different and here it will finally be decided one way or another.

Also check out the matrix, as we learned in the last movie there have been other "ones" in what could be a cycle a wheel of time but this one seems to be different here the machines might finally be overthrown.

The Wheel of Time Turns

Posted by absolutely no one on 13.06.03 03:55
and ages come and go. Just because the current age is called the third age doesn't mean it's the first third age. The wheel could have gone around hundreds of times and there could have been just as many third ages. The forth age where all the quotes are dated could have been six or more ages ago. Not the next one.


No one

Al' cair Rahienallen

Posted by The hymner on 15.07.03 01:39
This is the name that Loial gives Cairhien in TEoTW. It means the hill of the golden dawn.

The 4th Age

Posted by jofraz on 31.08.03 16:30
Those quotes cannot possibly be from the previous 4th Age. Just think about how many thousands of years are involved; if you assign 3000 yrs to the 3rd Age, then 6 more equivalent ages would make it l8,000+ years ago. In the meanwhile, the AOL completely changed the physical nature of the World and also, the Trolloc Wars very nearly destroyed all records since the Breaking.


jofraz

Egwene fanatic
"Elaida will be removed one way or another".
The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.
The end is near

Good therory..

Posted by Gladius on 28.08.05 13:43
I like it and to me it COULD happen,or has...
For example, in our own history of say King Arthur, we really don't know if he really existed as one man or as historians are suggesting that he was a mixture of many men through out history...
We can't even put a definite date on when this man could have existed, and that is in their(historians) timeline of no more than 1500 years!I think what RJ is attempting to do is show us that we really don't know anything of our own past, and who could have live and how. Because legend was passed orally for so long that distortions could and would take place.

Wait a minute...

Posted by napoleonCoplin on 13.09.05 22:59
What if the quotes are all fromthe LAST 4th age, not the next. Hmm, interesting thought, though probably wrong. It would be like RJ to throw something like that at us though.


It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing:
(a) one is 12 times bigger and
(b) both of them are rutabagas.

The Portal Stones

Posted by Stonedog Jiraad on 04.05.08 17:51
Ok, first and foremost, the tower and the general governing entity of the Aes Sedai in Randland continues to exist well beyond the third age. Remember that the portal stones in the other worlds have 7 stairs, each colored in the different Ajah colors, INCLUDING black. This may not signify the Black Ajah, but more the Black Tower being brought into the general Aes Sedai body. However point being there is no real reason for any Tar Valon name change, and also the battle of Tar Valon will be a building smasher, because almost as a HINT RJ has repeatedly placed that the Shining Walls were never conquered. Its begging for a blow down.