Perrin's Brambles

I noticed that reference to hewing through brambles at Dumai's Wells too and thought that was what the dream meant. I mean, hacking through countless Aiel, Younglings and Aes Sedai without a real plan to rescue Rand - how much more of a cliff do you need? But in PoD at the begining of Stronger Than Written Law, Egwene has the same dream of Perrin and Aram hacking through brambles. Why would she continue to have that dream if Perrin has already fulfilled it? And why is Aram always with him? He wasn't really important at Dumai's Wells. I don't know why RJ made such an obvious reference to brambles at DW. I assume this is one of the instances that Perrin has to be near Rand in order to save him, so perhaps the second situation will also have reference to hewing through people like brambles to save Rand.

it is truly horrify, the whole dumai wells scene, yes it's a great read, and you can't put the book down, but they are running though a mass of people killing like mad to get to Rand, sounds half ass like this one could have come true? (Prophesy)

You have Perrin, who hats to use his Axe, Loial, who also doesn’t like to kill, and Aram, a tinker who used to be of the Leaf, maybe this is metaphor about the closer Aram gets, the more danger Perrin is in, personally I don’t believe it, but it fits too, 3 people together who don’t like to do violence (cept Aram maybe) doing it head on.



"Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?"

"I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!"

I've thought it's a sort of a "point of no return", and likely a bad one. Maybe Aram is 'bad', maybe not, maybe he even is a Darkfriend, but I think his coldhearted liking to killing is the danger to Perrin. He's rabid, and that is catching.

Maybe it will be like "Hey, we rescued the ladies, Perrin, now let's go and hack those nasty Shaido to pieces!" from Aram. And that would be bad for his karma so to say, and more, it would delay him from getting to Rand.

So, I say, somehow Aram will try to make him stay and do some rabid killing, but he decides against it and goes to Rand... just in nick of time to save him, from what, I won't start guessing now. (No, I will. Alviarin! Coming whining to him, "Please save me O Mighty Dragon, those Black Ajah sisters are going to kill me!" referring to the Black Ajah hunters... Well just an offhand guess.)

Whoa, that might even happen - or not.


Seita

Just because you're paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you!

...that Jordan likes to trick us. He'll have a dream and then there'll be an event which seems to fit in with it, 2 books later and there's another event which fits just as well, so what was he referring to. An example just off the top of my head...Min has seen a broken crown around Perrin. This is highly likely to be to do with Saldea and Faile's links to the thrown, but just to add a bit of confusion we also have Faile and Perrin in the scene where Rand breaks the Cairheinin crown before fixing it.

So the brambles might just be meant to lead us away from the real answer (which we might not have seen yet).

Many of Egwene's dreams are not litteral and I think this is one of those : the race through brambles and the cliff Egwene sees are in Perrin's head and IMHO it's an ongoing issue with him, not a reference to a specific event. The Dumai's Wells battle was probably the first instance where Perrin's going to use this image. He might well invoke it again soon facing the Shaido to rescue Faile, explaining why Egwene still dreams of it.

As for Aram I'm one who don't believe him a darkfriend, it's his bloodthirst and eagerness to fight for revenge that will become dangerous to Perrin eventually, possibly when/if Perrin is faced with the same dilemna of seeking to avenge something or go on with his "duties" as ta'veren. I think the viewing about the hammer and the axe is also linked to that somehow. IMO, Perrin might is destined to become some sort of a leader/unifier in the vein of Artur "Hammer of Light" Hawkwing, though not necessarily by creating an empire litterally. But I don't think he will or should be a conqueror, he will have to drop the axe for the hammer to succeed. Going the way of the axe might mean loosing his humanity and "become a wolf" eventually and Aram might end up drawing him toward that after some dire tragedy.

As for the Broken Crown it's really RAFO... for all we know his wedding to Faile might have fulfilled this viewing already, but I have a hard time believing that RJ slowly built all this stuff about Basharande, the Broken Crown, Faile being the cousin of the Queen and the heir to the throne after her father only to snatch Faile from Perrin's life and make it all null and void. For some reason I don't have a problem imaging Faile and Perrin as Queen/King of Saldaea and New Matheren in a first step and later other rulers like Berelain, Alliandre and Elayne and possibly even Tuon aligning their people with him in an effort to unify the parts of the Westlands that the Forsaken won't control on the eve of the last battle (I'd bet on the whole West and South-West falling for good in their hands when Semirhage and Demandred's plans come to fruition).

There's just too many leaders who discover the virtues of Perrin right now to be something completely fortuitous, IMHO, and Morgase could turn out to be the key to bring Elayne, Gawyn and possibly Galad behind him eventually. But the cliff and the axe he will have to avoid to make it work, will have to be a peacemaker and unifier, not another Lord of Chaos like Rand has become under the Forsaken's manipulations of events. Rand will have to give up active political leadership to someone he trusts, military leadership to Mat and leave the unification of the channelers to Egwene and Logain while he concentrates on the DO and the Forsaken. Rand is running after his tail right now, with lands rebelling when he turns his back.

think we'll see the Perrin on the throne in the series. Not that I don't think he will eventually, I do, but I suspect it will be one of the threads Jordan will leave open at the end.

The cliff could simply be the Shaido and the actions that they will take against Perrin later in the series.

it seems to me that starting with damnai's well, perrin, and mat, have more and more an attack dog for rand. maybe slashing through the brambles is representative of his falling into this role, one that he wants no part of, and the reaching of the cliff is the point that he'll be in so deep he cant return.

hey, i just came up with a theory!

as a sort of point of no return. After this there is no possible way to take a lesser role. That sort of thing. But if he had to be there in the first place, as one of the two times he is supposed to save Rand, then the cliff is mute. The point of no return would have been earlier in his decision to help Rand. Maybe his decision to help Rand was the cliff, he could've let Rand go to the tower and lived a happy life with Faile in the Two Rivers until TG. But now, since he did save Rand, he's gallavanting al over Ghealdan trying to do a job Rand gave him.

This probably is not representative of one single event, but of a mind set that is dangerous to Perrin. It is dangerous for him to kill without acknowledging the fact that he is killing. This leads to dangerous consequences. This is comparable to Rand's internal battle with his own humanity. Also, I think Aram might be similar to Mordeth in a way. Not everybody in the books who is evil is also a darkfriend. It is all about tactics. If your tactics are evil, even if your goal is not, then you are evil. RJ has shown us that the end does not justify the means.

However, kudos to the theory writer for an impressive observation.

Maybe the cliff is the point where Perrin begins to like his axe, and killing. It has always been pushed around that Perrin is the Builder figure, and if he becomes a killer/destroyer it will upset the triangular ta'veran thing. I mean, thats definitely a HUGE danger.


Balefried

I actually think that the brambles have to do with the Shaido--or, rather, ARE the Shaido--but not neccesarily at Dumai's Well. I think it's the Shaido who kidnapped Faile. He will be trying to get to her, but with an immediate danger he won't be able to see because of his limited scope as far as Faile is concerned.


Jaded Angel

Well, not Dom. he had the right of it.

Ok.. first, the brambles that are refured to in the dreams could and most likely are the Shaido. think about it... its said twise in one page. It fits not much unlike O.J's glove.

So.. what do we have then... Perrin cutting his way through brambles (aka the Shaido). As I remember it, in the dream its stated that he is intent on the brambles that he dosent see the cliff.

In that case... the brambes being the Shaido have his attention. He is intent on the grousem battle. And then there's Aram. He is like the rabid dog that gets more vile the longer that its around its kind so to say(ie. death/killing). Lets face it, Aram has a BIG role in the books, I don't care what some of you fags say.

So.. we have Aram and his prophecyish type of a role, refuring to the '..and the closer Aram got to Perrin, the more of a feel of dread that Egwen had...' well something of the sort.

Ok then.. here we have Perrin hacking the Shaido, Aram by his side enjoying every moment of it.

Battles done.. the brambles and the cliff are gone right..?
NO!! FOOLS!! The cliff is the Aei Sedai. Think about it!!

I mean, think how keen Aram was on killing those Aei Sedai, what if all the bloodshead had made Perrin untrusting.. say he developes a Rand syndrom? What.. just think about it.. what if he truely thought that they were a thret to Rand and the Light or.. saymaybe Fail at some point? I could see Perrin killing women.. well he did.. Maidens and all.. Rand.. I can't.

So we have Aram convincing Perrin to do off some Aei Sadai, but the more you kill people for mistrust, the smaller the reason that you need to do over another one...

I could see this road leading to very, very dreadful outcomes.

i think it will be like this:

Perrin will hunt down the shaido and it will eventualy be a great battle. Falie will die and the shaido will run.
Perrin will want to follow the shaido and hunt down them all but the coulors in his head will be stonger or something, he will know he must get back to Rand.
But Aram will say that the should hunt down the shaido.
Perrin will have a hard desicion to make and i think that Berlain, Balwer and Morgase will be important for the outcome.

I dont know where the clif fits in, i leave that to u guys.

I agree 100% with your theory, but I think I've figured out the unseen cliff. When Perrin first meets Elyas, he is advised to continue hating the axe, and if he starts to love it, it's time to put it down. Thats the cliff. Perrin is hacking the Shaido to shreds, and the whole while getting more familiar and comfortable with the axe. If he begins to enjoy using the axe to kill, he himself will turn into a mindless killer, abandoning all feeling. If this were to happen, it could be possible that he would turn to the shadow, and if he's not there to help Rand, the world is doomed. That is the unseen cliff.

The cliff is falling in love with the axe and the consequences of it.

Faile doesn't even have to die for this to happen (and don't think she will). She could only be hurt badly when rescued and the Shaido leaders would escape. Perrin learns from Faile or other prisoners the full extent of what has been done to them and Aram fuels his hate even more and pushes Perrin to go after the Shaido (much like he did himself by forgetting his living grand-parents and fellow Tinkers to go on a Trolloc-killing campaign with Perrin to avenge his dead parents).

At the same time the colors go crazy and the time has definitely come for Perrin to join Rand for some important reason not necessarily known to Perrin (and he has many people under his responsability too) yet Perrin is full of hate and very tempted to forget about the Ta'veren pull and go on a bloody Shaido extermination campaign for revenge's sake when it's quite pointless since Faile is now safe.

That would remove the point that we could sympathize a bit too much with Perrin's desire for revenge if Faile has died .

i don't know what every one else thinks but i dont think that the 2 are canected it it was would not loial be in the dream 2 and i think that the dream will come true in cot during the rescue.

To save Rand. Maybe the brambles was one part, and now that he's through that, he has to scale the cliff. Remember Min's viewing that Perrin had to be there to save Rand twice, or he would die? Maybe once was the brambles, and next, (at TG or something? Or, most likley, the Seanchan) he has to scale a cliff to save him. *sighs* Rand causes ALL the complications in these books!

First of all, the Dream took place in Bk 8, PoD, pg 308 HC. It could not possibly be related to Bk 6, LoC, with the events of Dumai`s Well. Egwene`s Dreams do not take place in hindsight.

Saying that, I do believe it has to do with the Shaido-in this case while they are holding Faile and the others in Altara.


jofraz

Egwene fanatic
"Elaida will be removed one way or another".
The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.
The end is near

I think that that battle at Dumai's Wells is just a small part of that dream. What people said was true, about how once they reach the 'cliff', that something bad would have happened, either Aram and Perrin, (or just Aram) start to enjoy it. We already see signs of Aram starting to love battle and death already. I believe Perrin's path will lead Aram to destruction, and that will be enough for Perrin to see just what he was becoming.