The Homing Device Theory

I read one EXACTLY like it, same words and all

I like the idea of it, but why has Jordan not clued us into the technology of any sort of 'homing device'? I havent heard Jordan talk about it yet, and unless he's going to slap us in the face with it, I'd have to disagree


Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.

W.A.S.T.E.

I like the concept, and i do agree that the Crown has special properties, but not as a homing beakon. It could be that there was an inverted weave on the crown that let anyone know when it was touched be someone who could channel. I won't argue each point by point, but I do believe that some of it can be easily explained but Rand being Ta'veren. How about in TDR when everyone in Tear knows he's coming, I don't think that can only be caused by Be'lal's dreams.

"why has Jordan not clued us into the technology of any sort of 'homing device'?"

Actually he has. Moiraine gave Mat, Perrin and Rand coins when she first met them which allowed her to know where they were in a similar way to the warder bond. They could even lose the coins and regain them adn it stillw worked. the author of the theory really should have put that in.

Well if there is a hiing beacon it ain't Min that's for sure! They didn't know where he was in WH yet Min was with him all the time.

The problem with your theory is that almost every example can be explained away with something else. Why did they attack Rand's room? Well, it was his room, the Asha'man could ahve been informed that he was in there by spies. the only, one that I couldn't really give another reason for is the Mat meeting thing. However, there are certain things...for example it might just have been a rumour that coincidentally started just after Rand had indeed been there. Or perhaps someone was spying on Rand (Moridin? He could be invisible w/o Rand knowing he was there) from Caemlyn and saw Mat through the gateway.

None of these things prove you are wrong of course, but they kind of take awa any proof you might have had.

I'm not sure if I believe it...it's very interesting that's for sure. Hoefully some other blackboarders will come up with further proof for or against it.

The DO made Fain his hound, Fain was able to close his eyes and point directly to Rand and to a lesser degree the other two boys. Now that the DO has lost control of Fain whats to stop him from making more hounds out of his other black followers. I think that this is more likely then homing devices.

that doesn't work MrFroggy, if it was so then the Forsaken wouldn't have been wondering where Rand was, they'd know.

The reason the attacking Asha'man hadn't felt anything was 'cause Rand hadn't channeled enough for them to detect,

Taim went to the palace to talk to Rand and found the details, Asha'man can travel, they could scout the road between Cairhien and Tar valon fairly quickly.

Whats his bucket in Shadar Lagoth must be watching Rand closely, so no homing device,

The Ashaman could were trusted until they attacked, they could of easily found Rand's location,

Whats his name under Mat wouldn't know anyone connected to such device, who would reveal such knowledge?????

However.... if there is one on his person it would be the angreal of the man, Rand didn't have the Crown yet, he doesn't take his sceptor to telanrhioid either.



DARTH DRAGON

"Truth begins as heresy."

doesn't Rand lose the angreal at the end of LoC (is that right? I think so, no doubt Taim has it) and some of these things happen later than that.

Still, the fact that Jordan mentioned Rand touching the crown is interesting...though it might mean nothing. I have been guilty of reading too much into his words in the past.

Your point about Taim having the angreal. This is high possibility, and I never even thought about that before.

One thing I was thinking is that Dumai's Wells was planned between Mesaana and Demmy, and maybe Graendal as well.

I would imagine that Galina was instructed to alert Mesaana of any objects of power. By giving Taim the angreal, then Galina could have been guaranteed an escape from the crime-scene. Of course, Galina was later captured by the Shaido.

However, if Taim had found the angreal- then I am sure that the angreal is now property of Demandred. Taim most likely works for Demmy, so Demmy would most certainly have gotten the angreal.




ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.

I think the significance of Rand touching the crown before leaving his apartments had to do with Cadsuane not being impressed with a grand entrance with Crown and Scepter. So he left them. It is still odd that they survived the explosion, but perhaps its just ta'veren at work.

And Rand had neither Crown nor Scepter when he went to Shadar Logoth.

there are no "homing devices... god!!!!!

The idea of homing devices is ridiculous. How would the Forsaken get their hands on the Dragon Scepter, let alone Rand's belt buckle? It is possible, but not very likely, that the D.O. gave a little of Fain's "hound" ability to the reborn Forsaken (Moridin and Dashiva/Osan'gar). Personally I think all this is coincidence and/or ta'veren.


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

Do you two even bother to read other people's blackboard posts or just state uninformed opinions? I have already given an example of when a homing device has been used in the series, Moiraine uses the coins she gives the three taveren at the beginning of the series as homing devices.

As to how they could get there hands on it if there is one, Moridin would be quite capable of getting at such an object undetected. Another way would be if a spy informed one of the Forsaken that Rand had left the city to go to another, it's risky as you never know when he'll return for certain, but opening a gateway to his room would be possible.

I'm not saying I believe a homing device is being used, but I am saying that the idea that a homing device is ridiculous is, itself, ridiculous.

There very well could be a homing device along the lines of the coins that Moiraine gave to the boys at the beginning of EotW. This doesn't mean, however, that there is.

Rand does seem to make a point of carrying around the Dragon Scepter, Crown of Swords, and Laman's sword whenever he has a chance. He has reasons (or rationalizations) for keeping each of these on his person, so any of these could be a homing device.

However, we know from the coins that the device does not need to be kept for it to keep working, although it is best if it is. Therefore, it does not need to be something that Rand constantly has on his person, or even is in ownership of currently. I got the impression from EotW that once the boys put down the coins that the link would fade quickly, but if the Forsaken are involved, they may know of a better way to handle it.

So, what items has Rand carried around with him for long periods of time? Here's a list off the top of my head:

Tam's Sword. This is the first "thing" that Rand aquires in the books. He also kept it with him for quite a while, even sleeping with it at times if I remember correctly (since he was on the run through a great deal of EotW). However, there wasn't really a chance for anyone else to get their hands on it, and he hasn't had it for so long, I doubt that the link would still be effective now. Also, nobody was quite sure if he was even the Dragon Reborn at this point, and Ishy was keeping tabs on him through his dreams, where distance and location are pretty much meaningless.

Thom's Flute. Pretty much the same as above, except that Rand had it for an even shorter time, and he got it from Thom, not Tam. As for his new flute, he doesn't even carry that around with him much.

Mat's Dagger. It was pretty much said outright that in the books that darkfriends felt drawn to the dagger, even though they didn't quite know why. However, the dagger was in Mat's posession, and he is (as far as we know) completely free of its influence. Also, he isn't even with Rand now.

Dragon Banner. Along with the first seal, this is the first thing that Rand picks up after it is proven without a doubt that he is the Dragon Reborn. It makes a lot of sense to make the homing device something that you know the person you want to track is going to get their hands on. However, it was at the bottom of The Eye, and I doubt that anyone could have gotten their hands on it until The Eye was emptied. Also, I doubt that it could have been rigged before it was put in The Eye. Finally, Rand left it in Tear and kept it as far away from himself as he possibly could.

Callandor. Another really good choice for a homing device. However, we don't really know much about how it was held in place and what protection it had on it. Also, not only did Rand leave it in the Stone, he didn't keep it too terribly long.

The Dragon Scepter. Good choice, since he seems to take it with him almost everywhere he goes. Who would have had a chance to rig it though? With all the channelers following Rand about, it would be very risky to try to do something like that undetected.

The Dragon Belt Buckle. Same as above. Too risky. Also, it isn't something that people notice as much as the scepter. People named the scepter as such because he carried it around so much. Nobody recognizes the Dragon because of his nifty keen belt buckle.

Laman's Sword. Another unlikely candidate. First, Rand had the hilt removed. Would that have broken the link? Would it have created two homing devices? It is possible, but there are too many complications to make it likely.

The Crown of Swords. This is the first thing that has a really good chance of being an appropriate homing device. Not only was it in the "posession" (and I use that term very loosely) of one of the Forsaken for quite a while, and he knew Rand was coming for him. However, RJ has said that Sammy died, so unless he's been brought back, he can't be tracking Rand, and even then the link might have been broken when he died. Of course, it might not have been Sammy who was tracking him.


Those are all the things I could think of that could have been used to track Rand. None of them are really likely. It still is a possibility though.

Whatever happened to those 3 coins anyway? Do we know? (Not that I think it really matters, but just wondering.)




Long Live Taimandred!
Cybrmnk -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.

To Sven Littlehorse & Goldeneyes, the submitters of this theory -

I read this exact theory word for word on another site a few days ago. one of the posters on another theory put in the URL to the site. it contained two other theories besides the homing device theory. Perhaps you will submit the Evil Min Theory next - word for word

if you are the author of the original theory at that site, then more power to you; you have the right to spread your thought provocing ideas with the rest of us. however, if you just copied it from them, then you plagerized and that is wrong. if you really wanted to post this theory at wotmania, you should have gotten permission of the writer, and then made a comment that you submitted this with their consent.

the theory is good and well presented, though. the Evil Min Theory at that site was good as well. whether there are homing devices on Rand's person, we'll know eventually

"One thing I was thinking is that Dumai's Wells was planned between Mesaana and Demmy, and maybe Graendal as well."

I think the kidnapping was planned by Mesaana and Demandred, with helps from Graendal, perhaps, but I don't see how or why.

OTOH, the rescue at Dumai's Wells, I think, was ordered by Moridin to Dashiva/Osang'ar, though Shaidar Haran. Moridin kept an eye on Rand from Cairhien the same way he followed him to Shadar Logoth - whatever that is. He told Dashiva to put a stop to it and rescue Rand, either by ordering Taim openly or more likely by a more subtle manipulation like Asha'man scouts secretly controlled by Dashiva warning Taim that Rand was in danger, forcing Taim to act or reveal himself as a traitor. By doing that, Moridin stole control of the Asha'man from Demandred. With Dashiva near Rand, Demandred has lost his "private access" - Dashiva could counteract on most Rand-related orders Demandred would give to Taim and Demandred could do nothing since Osan'gar was there on the DO's direct orders!

This is something I'm currently working into a Moridin/Sha'ra theory and for which I'm still collecting evidence and clues.

I don't think Moridin needs a tracking device or has one. His network of spies and his manipulation of the other Chosen are more than sufficient.

Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing.

He could also take the time to plan properly with the DO the final strategy before TG, picking the pieces from where they were then placed on the Sha'ra board. By giving them sspecific orders to "let the Lord of Chaos rule", the DO could let Moridin observe in secret how they fit that in their plans, what their plans are and also identify the traitors.

The game of Sha'ra is not played against Rand or the Light at all - the second side Moridin is playing is the Chosen's, the 9 other persons alive who knew how to play that game. Moridin was given three new pieces to place where he wished : Osan'gar, Aran'gar and Cyndane - plus Shaidar Haran. Even the Gars were not told initially about the existence of Moridin - it was crucial that they believed the DO, not Ishamael, was ordering them directly, so that they wouldn't be tempted to join the others' plans. The DO now wants his Chosen held very closely from now on - he doesn't trust any but the Naeb'lis.

Moridin plays his own side, the DO's, the game he has been playing as Ishamael originally, and he plays the other side. First he used only SH and the resurrected Chosen and put them strategicaly among the others, and eventually he won control of all the others using... the Fisher. They all played his game since LOC and they don't know it yet! Once Ishamael blundered. He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other "player" (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen.

Because of SH, the Chosen were all fooled from LOC to POD and learned about Moridin's existence too late to be able to hide their little schemes or adapt their strategies because of his arrival. Very very clever DO.

Mesaana's personal schemes are now hindered by Aran'gar being among the Rebels, Demandred's are now hindered with his Asha'man and when he tries to use Taim to manipulates Elayne in the direction he wishes, Moridin has already recuperated BA sisters from Moghedien, Lady Shiaine from Sammael and Halon from Ravhin to stall him! He did similar things to Graendal and Sammael, and even to Semirhage by putting Liandrin (her whereabouts provided to him by Moghedien) with the High Lady Suroth, but I'll leave that for the actual theory. I'm sure he recuperated Isam too from his previous owner (Lanfear, IMHO - that would explain why he disappeared from the story when she did and why he returned only when she's back).

I think Jordan, while providing many clues, very cleverly used Shaidar Haran to hide the existence of Moridin from us too. This way, he didn't kill the suspense by revealing that the Chosen's current plans are a moot point and will all be forestalled, nor did he reveal much about the DO and Moridin's real plan which no doubt he wants to keep for the final sprint toward TG. And if I'm right with this theory, I'd bet this big twist in the plan will occur in CoT, in a Moridin vs. Demandred showdown that will force Mesaana and Semirhage to choose their camp (and at least one will save her skin and choose Moridin's side, I think).

But I don't think Moridin needs an homing device - he has sufficient control already.

For those of you who are confused, Goldeneyes was one of the co-authors of this the Homing Device theory. He posted it, on my request, to this site. You will probably see a few more of his theories in the next week or so.

I want to extend my thanks to Goldeneyes for sharing his theories to this site. Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, it presents an interesting perspective well-quoted. And look what is coming out of the blackboard.


To Dom: I just want to say that your last post on this blackboard was brilliant! I always saw an association between SH and Moridin also, but never put it together like you did. I highly encourage you to post that as soon as you finish (hopefully before November!)




ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.

This reply is worth replying to, so here is my analysis of your post:

"I think the kidnapping was planned by Mesaana and Demandred, with helps from Graendal, perhaps, but I don't see how or why."

I'm not sure of Graend's involvement either.

"By doing that, Moridin stole control of the Asha'man from Demandred. With Dashiva near Rand, Demandred has lost his "private access" - Dashiva could counteract on most Rand-related orders Demandred would give to Taim and Demandred could do nothing since Osan'gar was there on the DO's direct orders!"

My one thought is that Rand picked Dashiva through ta'veren coincidence. It wasn't planned for Dashiva to be that close to Rand, it just kind of worked out to be that way.


"I don't think Moridin needs a tracking device or has one. His network of spies and his manipulation of the other Chosen are more than sufficient."

True

"Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing."

This makes sense. Do you think that SH is Moridin?? Based on the theories of the last couple of weeks such as the Everlasting Fade, it makes perfect sense that SH is actually Moridin. This is also the only way I could think of that allows Osangar and Arangar to be under Moridin's control. Because Moridin didn't appear until ACoS, while SH made his first (debately) appearance in LoC. If Moridin was posing as SH, then that is how he managaed to wean those 2 forsaken under his control.

"He could also take the time to plan properly with the DO the final strategy before TG, picking the pieces from where they were then placed on the Sha'ra board. By giving them sspecific orders to "let the Lord of Chaos rule", the DO could let Moridin observe in secret how they fit that in their plans, what their plans are and also identify the traitors."

Traitors?? Doesn't the DO already know their plans?? I thougth that the DO was the one who ordered Demandred in the 1st place (at least in LoC). I am a little confused by this paragraph. I don't think any of the forsaken are foolish enough to be full-blown traitors- although they might have a bunch of little sub-plots (such as Sammael, Lanfear, and Graendal) that are unknown to the DO.

" Even the Gars were not told initially about the existence of Moridin - it was crucial that they believed the DO, not Ishamael, was ordering them directly, so that they wouldn't be tempted to join the others' plans. The DO now wants his Chosen held very closely from now on - he doesn't trust any but the Naeb'lis."

This is the best point of your theory. To me, it also makes sense that SH might be Moridin.

"First he used only SH and the resurrected Chosen and put them strategicaly among the others, and eventually he won control of all the others using... the Fisher."

I'm not completely sure about this. Dashiva was placed near Demmy's men. But what about Halima? Do you think there was another forsaken in the Salidar camp? And we still don't know much about his plans for Cyndane and Moggy.


" Once Ishamael blundered. He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other "player" (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen."

I'm not sure about his yet. It actually seemed pretty foolish for Ishmael to rush into Tear the way he did. Especially since Rand already had Callandor. Be'lal was already dead. And what good would Ishmael's death do to prevent Rand from being captured by Lanfear and the others during his absence?

"Because of SH, the Chosen were all fooled from LOC to POD and learned about Moridin's existence too late to be able to hide their little schemes or adapt their strategies because of his arrival. Very very clever DO."

This makes sense. But it really begs the question: Why is Ishmael so important?? Why is he so much better than any of the others? Why not demandred or Graendal? What is special about the soul of Ishmael? Do you think that Ishmael is the Anti-Dragon?? Sort of the exact reverse of Lews Therin?? Why else could explain this?

"Mesaana's personal schemes are now hindered by Aran'gar being among the Rebels, Demandred's are now hindered with his Asha'man and when he tries to use Taim to manipulates Elayne in the direction he wishes, Moridin has already recuperated BA sisters from Moghedien, Lady Shiaine from Sammael and Halon from Ravhin to stall him! He did similar things to Graendal and Sammael, and even to Semirhage by putting Liandrin (her whereabouts provided to him by Moghedien) with the High Lady Suroth, but I'll leave that for the actual theory. I'm sure he recuperated Isam too from his previous owner (Lanfear, IMHO - that would explain why he disappeared from the story when she did and why he returned only when she's back)."

Moridin definitely is moving around agents. I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter.

"I think Jordan, while providing many clues, very cleverly used Shaidar Haran to hide the existence of Moridin from us too. This way, he didn't kill the suspense by revealing that the Chosen's current plans are a moot point and will all be forestalled, nor did he reveal much about the DO and Moridin's real plan which no doubt he wants to keep for the final sprint toward TG. And if I'm right with this theory, I'd bet this big twist in the plan will occur in CoT, in a Moridin vs. Demandred showdown that will force Mesaana and Semirhage to choose their camp (and at least one will save her skin and choose Moridin's side, I think)."

I wouldn't mind seeing a Moridin vs. Demandred show-down. Demandred has definitely expressed his wish of supplanting Moridin. however, I do not think it would be a direct combat showdown. IT would be more subtle and indirect. Demandred is not stupid, and to win the favor of the DO he could not kill Moridin directly."

"But I don't think Moridin needs an homing device - he has sufficient control already."

probably




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Thnaks for the compliments Matrimony... I sure hope to be able to post the full theory soon. I'm sure you'll like how I fit Sammael & Graendal, the gholam and Harid Fel into this...

-------My one thought is that Rand picked Dashiva through ta'veren coincidence. It wasn't planned for Dashiva to be that close to Rand, it just kind of worked out to be that way.

Yup. An added bonus for Moridin. But, correct me if I'm wrong (this is why my theory isn't ready yet, unending double-checking...), didn't Rand noticed that Taim was shocked that he chose Dashiva, and wasn't Taim the one to propose Asha'man body guards initially? If my theory is right, Taim's allegiance is to Demandred but both are also forced to deal with Dashiva's presence, by the DO's orders. Taim was ordered by Dem to suggest bodyguards but he also had no choice to let Dashiva come - now he is shocked to realize that he won't control his little friends near Rand like Dem wanted him to because "on mission for the DO" Dashiva went with them! Do you remember how pissed Demandred was with "those idiots" Asha'man in WH? He has not realized yet that Moridin is playing the Asha'man piece on the sha'ra board - he gives orders to Taim but if Moridin doesn't like the orders, Dashiva manages to make them fail. If SH was still the one ordering Osan'gar, then Dashiva may not even have known he was working for the Naeb'lis... and he certainly wouldn't tell Dem about orders from the DO... That's how clever Moridin is : he is dislocating all the alliances between the Chosen and force them to work for him alone.

"Basically, I think that Shaidar Haran was a device used by the DO to hide Moridin's existence from the other Chosen for a while, so that Moridin could secretly take back control and REALLY tell the DO how the world fared and what the Chosen were REALLY doing."

------------This makes sense. Do you think that SH is Moridin??

I don't know. It's still an open possibility for me at this point, one that I like but I'm not sure it pans out. A TP Illusion could well explain all of SH's powers, and a fade disguise is convenient to mask the saa!... OTOH, doesn't SH show true Fade characteristics too, like the shadow travelling? I'm not sure Moridin could put that out with the TP, but maybe it's more complex than Illusion, transmigration to and from SH's body, etc. After all, that would not be much weirder than the still unexplained Luc/Isam. It's quite sweet to imagine that Moridin could have been standing right next to Demandred during his LoC chat with the DO, though...

"This is also the only way I could think of that allows Osangar and Arangar to be under Moridin's control."

Oh, that - if Moridin came later than I think then SH simply had to tell the Gars that they now had to obey the Naeblis. But I think that Moridin was the first to be resurrected and was provided with all the information the Chosen gave to the DO ("Demandred, how fare this world?". He learned about the Asha'man, Salidar, Graendal bringing Asmodean's body to the DO etc. I think the DO was getting pissed off by the Chosen not acting together after Ishamael's death, he resurrected Ishamael and gave him even stronger authority than before.

"Moridin didn't appear until ACoS"

Except in Jordan's head maybe.


"Traitors?? Doesn't the DO already know their plans??"

Yes and no. I think the DO's not all-knowing for now. I think Ishamael was always the most honest with him. No doubt for me that the DO approved the whole Ba'alzamon stuff, for instance. IMO, he knows what the Chosen tell him of their plans, and he counts on what they report to him about one another to double-check. I think after FOH, the DO was worried about his Chosen being so busy scheming against one another that they could well all be balefired before TG. Lanfear's little plan got 3 of them killed back to back! So he decided it was time for a Naeblis, he resurrected Moridin and ordered him to unite them. The problem around FoH was that the Chosen were almost all having their little plan on the side, obeying the DO's orders in spirit but also trying to make the others stumble, others that were working on something else for the DO... Very counterproductive so close to TG. I don't think any is a true "traitor", but they have peculiar ideas of what would please the DO. Like Graendal and her plan to manipulate Sammael to kill Rand and get the blame in her place.


-----Dashiva was placed near Demmy's men. But what about Halima? Do you think there was another forsaken in the Salidar camp?

No. Mesaana's proxies there are Black Ajah. Ishamael was once the big boss of the BA, long before the Chosen awoke. No doubt he is the one who handed them to Mesaana, she was his agent in the Tower. Note that Mesaana took active control of the Tower (Alviarin) *after* Ishamael's death. Possibly she wasn't allowed by Ishy to do that, but after his death she developped her own plan with Dem and Semirhage. Whatever she wants to achieve with the rebels, Moridin has apparently decided to take control back of the Salidar AS from her. And with Halima heading for Tar Valon, he might even throw out Mesaana quite soon, if that's what he wants. She controls the Keeper and head of the BA, he controls Egwene as Amyrlin, friend of Rand etc.


" Once Ishamael blundered. He rushed blindly to get the Fisher from the other "player" (In Tear - out of the competing clutches of Sammael, Mesaana, Be'lal, Lanfear) and when a player does that, it results in a blood bath on the board - Ishamael lost and died. Moridin won't let that happen again, he won't let any control to the Chosen."

------I'm not sure about his yet. It actually seemed pretty foolish for Ishmael to rush into Tear the way he did."

I still have to work on this part. I'm not sure why Ishy rushed to Rand in Tear but there's no doubt he went in a desperate and hasty move to get the Fisher from the other player and got killed, he says so himself in the chapter where he plays sha'ra. But I think he feared the dangerous combination of Lanfear+Callandor+Rand, or that Sammael would come and get Callandor. I don't really understand his move, in any case - but it's probably not very logical anyway since himself considers it a big miscalculation.

"But it really begs the question: Why is Ishmael so important??"

Very good question. I don't know. This smells awfully like RAFO.

"Moridin definitely is moving around agents. I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter."

As always! But there's definitely a pattern since ACoS : he's getting more and more control over the Chosen from book to book. In WH, he even started making work on a single plan (that they don't really understand - it seems).

Did I mentionned why sparked the theory? LOC prologue. Mesaana thinks that Demandred's risky plan could hand them everything but at end she start to fear that the DO had another plan above it, hidden from them and *that* scared her witless. I think she was right about the plan, and right to be scared! And that it was RJ's first clue about another plan. The second, more explicit clue, was the sha'ra game riddle in PoD.


"I wouldn't mind seeing a Moridin vs. Demandred show-down. Demandred has definitely expressed his wish of supplanting Moridin. however, I do not think it would be a direct combat showdown."

Oh no, me neither! If Demandred is to be "defeated" in the next book, I sure hope it will be in a true machievellian fashion, not with a bunch of TP weaves in a single chapter... in fact, I hope the showdown with Demandred comes from a scheme where he tries to mount an alliance against Moridin that will fail and show us a bit of the extent of Moridin's tentacles. I don't even want Demandred to die but to submit and put his proxies (some still unrevealed) in the Naeb'lis hands, controlled by a mindtrap or forced by Moridin to use the True Power now that Saidin is clean of the taint and that the DO lost his hook on Demandred - the bad boy who tried to make the confirmed Naeb'lis strumble. That would be a good way to keep Demandred in the story with his cool proxy stuff, a "defeat" worthy of the character and a way to preserve his quality as a dangerous opponent for Rand's forces. It's also a perfect occasion for Moridin to reveal to us how much he controls all the others since his resurrection. Ideally, I'd like Moridin to act like that by pure rivalry and in a struggle for power, not because Dem has done anything "bad" in the grand scheme.

Dom... Is a GOD!!!

"-if Moridin doesn't like the orders, Dashiva manages to make them fail. "

Hmm... Do you think that Dashiva helped keep Rand alive in Cairhienen? Do you think that Dashiva purposely sabotaged Demandred's order to have Rand killed there?



I have a couple of other additions to this theory. Now that Dashiva is dead, Demandred will have some more flexibility in maneuvering his Asha'man proxies. This could be a bone of contention with Moridin. I also think that Demandred might have Rand's little man angreal (thanks to 3 in a boat. I will write up a more ellaborate theory about this later). Demandred is the last free-standing male channeler left- and now that saidin is cleansed, he will some more liberty. Mesaana and Semirhage and Graendal are the last-freestanding women left. Demandred, Mesaana and Semi are all an alliance to topple their opponents before they topple each other. Graendal has also been in on the meetings with Demmy's trio.
I think it is also interesting to note that neither Mesaana nor Semmy appeared at Moridin's latest meeting- neither of these women appear to be under Moridin's same spectre of influence yet.

What we are looking at is a possible showdown. We might actually have a fight between 2 different Forsaken camps.

1. There is Moridin's camp with Arangar, Moggy, Cyndane.

2. And there is Demandred's camp with Demmy, Semirhage, and Messana.

Graendal is a wildcard- you never know which team she would play for. She has alliances to both Moridin and Demmy. She is clever and backstabbing, so you can't plan on anything with her. But she is important, especially with her angreal.

The camp's on the surface seem relatively evenly matched. Let's examine these camps a little closer.

1. Moridin has access to all kinds of things we don't know about- including the grave. I fully expect a return of Sammael, and a Sammael that is mindtrapped by Moridin. Plainly, Moridin needs good generals to marshall his armies, and who better than Sammael? Aginor or Asmodean could also make a return under the control of Moridin.
Arangar, Cyndane, and Moggy are also quite dangerous. Do you realize that Moridin's faction has all the dreamwalkers (if you don't count those who enter dreamworld in the flash). This faction probably also has the services of Isam, and maybe a gholam as well.

2. Demandred is incredibly dangerous- and I think he probably has Rand's little fat man angreal. Demmy also has his Asha'man (though we don't know who is black anymore) and Taim.
Semirhage is very lethal, and has access to da'mane.
We have not really seen much of Mesaana's powers yet, but Mesaana does have access to most of the BA.

Dom- I think you are on to something. I think it is very interesting that the only characters who have not died or are being controlled by Moridin also happen to be in an age-old alliance. I would LOVE to see such a showdown. I don't know how this showdown will go down, but I know that Demandred will put up a fight. I also predict that Sammael and possibly Asmodean will make their returns in the next book. RJ did give us that whole hint about Sammael being dead. Is that so that it will be easier but us to swallow that fact that he will be back alive in CoT? Who knows? But i think it could be cool, and it could resolve a lot of unanswered questions.
There are 2 places, however, that would be excellent places for such a showdown to occur: in the midst of either the black or the white tower conflicts.


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This is certainly interesting!

I'm not so sure that Demandred does have the angreal, I think Taim may still have it. After all, we've already seen Asha'man think of the Forsaken...well, not with scorn, but not with fear or worship like others. Taim is probably twice as arrogant as any other Asha'man and I would think only Logain comes even close to his power (I'm not saying Loagin is far behind Taim, I'm saying everyone else is far behind these two). It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that taim considers himself an equal to the Chosen and therefore if he got his hands on the angreal I doubt he'd give it to Demandred but keep it secretly for himself instead.

As for a Forsaken showdown...I agree with you guys that it wouldn't just be between Demandred and Moridin. I was actually thinking about this a few days ago when I read that chapter in WH when Moridin gives the Forsaken orders to stop the CK being used. It would be incredibly stupid of Demandred to openly face Moridin alone for the following reasons:

Moridin is naturally stronger than Demandred in the power as it is, not much stronger, but still the advantage is with Moridin.

Moridin uses the True Power while Demandred uses the One Power. That means Moridin will be able to see what Demandred is doing and feel where he's doing it, while remaining practically invisible himself.

Moridin, as Ishamael, has been free from the bore on and off for 3000 years. Who knows what discoveries he's made in that time. After all, we have seen that Moridin is able to do something similar to flight at least. None of the other have demonstrated that they know how to do this. Is it because it's impossible with the One Power, but not the True Power or is because Moridin has had the time to figure it out?

So if there was to be a confrontation, it would indeed have to be between more than two of them. However, I'm not sure we'll see it. one of Demandred and Moridin would surely have to die. We just know Moridin isn't going to die, throughout the series he has been set up as the guy Rand's gonna have to face. Moridin will face Rand in the last book, I'm certain of it. However, I also expect Rand to kill Demandred at some stage. If not Rand I'd think even Taim is a more likely candidate than Moridin, especially if he's kept the angreal secret from him.

Unless there is some weird Luc/Isam style thing going on, Moridin and SH are not one. We have seen both their points of views in the books with no hint that one is the other, yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade, if not a massively more powerful one. So for them to be one they'd have to not be aware that they changed, which doesn't seem likely.

Three In A Boat is a God

There are few people that are always right on in their posts. Three in a Boat is one of those people. all would do well to listen to his sage takes on matters. he posseses a keen understanding of the series that surpasses most readers.

in that case, i can't seem to recall where moridin flew (or was hinted at being able to fly) Where is that?

Yep, rand al tor- 3 in a Boat is very perceptive.



"I'm not so sure that Demandred does have the angreal, I think Taim may still have it. After all, we've already seen Asha'man think of the Forsaken...well, not with scorn, but not with fear or worship like others."

You are probably right here, but it all depends on whether Demandred knew about the angeal or not. If demmy knew, then Taim probably wouldn't have made it out of ACoS alive. I did find one quote in ACoS that hints at Gedwyn finding the angreal however. I will write a joint theory with you about this if you want 3 in a boat. I definitely think that Demmy is not Taim, however- and I have another theory coming, using quotes I found that are not often used in this debate. Hopefully it will get posted.



"Taim is probably twice as arrogant as any other Asha'man and I would think only Logain comes even close to his power (I'm not saying Loagin is far behind Taim, I'm saying everyone else is far behind these two)."

I doubt this. I bet Narishma is going to become very very strong- afterall Narishma also has the spark. And some of the 2 Rivers males will become strong- Taim remarked on this find to Rand. I think Damer is very strong but probably not nearly to the level of Logain and Taim.

"It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that taim considers himself an equal to the Chosen and therefore if he got his hands on the angreal I doubt he'd give it to Demandred but keep it secretly for himself instead."

Me neither



" However, I also expect Rand to kill Demandred at some stage. If not Rand I'd think even Taim is a more likely candidate than Moridin, especially if he's kept the angreal secret from him."

I think I would wet my pant if their was actually a Taim-Demandred showdown. That would be the coolest thing ever!!

"Unless there is some weird Luc/Isam style thing going on, Moridin and SH are not one. We have seen both their points of views in the books with no hint that one is the other"

This all hinges on whether the true power can be used at Shayol Ghul or not. If it can, which seems possible, then Moridin could have just weaved his Mask of Mirrors there. If not, then Moridin and SH are probably not the same.

", yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade, if not a massively more powerful one."

What hints?? I recall the description of Moridin as being in a mcuh younger male body.



For Rand al tor: We saw Moridin and Rand in Flight at their battle in Falme.


ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.

Idea...

A ward was woven in the room to let renegade Asha'man know when Rand entered the room. The one Asha'man who said that he 'felt nothing' implying Rand is dead, would probably assume that Rand would hold onto the Power after the explosion (possibly to protect himself) and I believe that he was referring to that and not that he felt Rand was dead.

Keep in mind that the Dragon sceptor is only a broken spear. I do not think that it could be Power wrought because it was in Seanchan hands. It's small, that could explain why it survived the explosion. The crown could have survived because it is made out of something hard; metal.

MR Froggy 420 has a point... maybe the Asha'man were clued in by Fain (highly unlikely) and they were killed by Fain because he wanted to take care of Rand.




I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart
Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them
"It's going to be a trilogy." -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)

"Only RJ knows"

PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm

Sorry, I wrote this:

"yet we have seen hints that Moridin is indeed a Fade"

but I actually meant this:

"yet we have seen hints that Shaidar Haran is indeed a Fade".

While it's true that Moridin could disguise himself as a Fade, we have actually seen SH's point of view. We see it at the end of a chapter in ACoS I believe, he thinks of how he is a Fade, but a special one, because he can smell (it might actually be taste, can't remember) the difference between saidan and saidar and see it's residue. So it's unlikely he's Moridin.

As for Narishma ending up as strong as Taim and Logain, certainly I think that may happen, but I simply mean write now in the series and Narishma is not near that level yet.

"I will write a joint theory with you about this if you want 3 in a boat"

Oh god, don't bother with that! You can use anything I say or whatever, but you don't need to credit me for anything.

I was actually thinking of the end of TDR for when Ishamael flies/floats:

"Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.
Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes."

<quote>mrFroggy:
The DO made Fain his hound, Fain was able to close his eyes and point directly to Rand and to a lesser degree the other two boys. Now that the DO has lost control of Fain whats to stop him from making more hounds out of his other black followers. I think that this is more likely then homing devices.

Three In A Boat:
that doesn't work MrFroggy, if it was so then the Forsaken wouldn't have been wondering where Rand was, they'd know. </quote>


MrFroggy, did you notice how much Fain enjoyed being linked to Rand? The idea was that he would hate Rand so much for it that he would kill him. Fain killed an innkeeper whose inn had a Waygate in the cellar, just out of spite that the innkeeper had freedom to go where he chose and Fain could not but go on towards Rand through the Waygate. Fain was just a peddlar, a nobody: would the DO do that to one of his Chosen unless they'd done something really bad?

Aside - homing devices aren't really necessary when the DO has copious numbers of ravens, rats, probably cockroaches, and so forth at his disposal for spying. Rats even get into palaces, you know. Roaches would be even better.


You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!


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Fadingoutandnowgone

Although the coins certainly lead the reader to believe that "homing devices" do in fact exist, I think a combination of different factors makes more sense. Two of these things have already been mentioned:

1.) Rand is strongly ta'veren, and, well, weird things happen to ta'vern, like your untrustworthy Black Tower leader showing up at an opportune time to save you from the White Tower.

and

2.) An inverted ward placed around a room seems much more likely. I do believe that the Dragon Sceptre is Power-wrought, even if it only serves the simple purpose of a spear in the hands of a Seanchan soldier, but it isn't necessarily a "homing device."

The third thing is Rand's wound in his side. Moiraine, among others, commented often that some lingering evil (perhaps a strange True Power residue?) remained that prevented the wound from healing fulling. It seems much more likely a homing device to me because of its nature and the fact that Rand carries THAT with him 24/7.

Also, it is possible that ANY object made with the One Power could be detected WITH the One Power. Tam's sword, the Dragon Sceptre, Mat's spear, Fain's Dagger all angreals and sa'angreals and possibly even the Crown of Swords would qualify.

I doubt specific homing devices could be found, much less used. Moiraine might have had some because they'd been tucked away in the Tower for the Creator knows how long. I also think somewhere it is said that Elayne is the first person in millenia who could design and manufacture new ter'angreals and such. Not even the Forsaken knew how to do it. Isn't that right? If so, then it's even less likely a Forsaken could get his/her hands on one.

There are some good counter-theories floating around there. Good job, people.

-Braidtugger

argue that anything naturally focusing in on Rand himself rather than something he has just isn't possible as the Forsaken would have known where Rand was when they couldn't find him and clearly they didn't.

As to those coins, they aren't in themselves homing devices. It was what Moiraine did to them with the power that made them that way as long as the person she gave them too held it. If you notice, when she gives Mat and Rand their coins, she cups their hands within hers, but she does not do the same thing for...whatever his name is, begins with E, high pitched voice which ends up low pitched. She also says there is a bond between them, so she has doen something with the power, something similar to a warder bond (but much milder) in that she can locate them if they hold the coin. However, I think it's just as likely that she could have used a kitchen sink as a coin if she wanted, but the coins would fit and they shouldn't question them. On a side point I think she also used a mild form of compulsion (naughty Moiraine! Though it's not surprising, she does balefire later on too) which is meant to make them refuse to give the coins away and does at first, but no doubt their ta'vereness allowed them to overcome it.

"Hmm... Do you think that Dashiva helped keep Rand alive in Cairhienen? Do you think that Dashiva purposely sabotaged Demandred's order to have Rand killed there?"

I don't know - possibly. Maybe the room was warded to warn Dashiva of Rand's departure and he made sure to launch the attack only when Rand left. I don't remember a POV of Osan'gar thinking that he blundered on this mission, but I might forget something. I remember he flinched when Demandred scorned the Asha'man and the fact they were discovered, but Osan'gar might just feel uncomfortable to be the focus of Dem's fury. Quite understandable if Moridin forces him to betray Demandred - it's a dangerous game Aginor is forced to play. He is wary of Demandred but it's Moridin that terrifies him "since the beginning". Dashiva's POV during the SL battle let believe he never tried to kill Rand before, I think (I'm not sure).

"Now that Dashiva is dead, Demandred will have some more flexibility in maneuvering his Asha'man proxies."

Some, but not that much. A side effect of his death for Moridin is that Demandred might make a mistake if he now thinks himself free of "spies". Moridin has also taken to order the Asha'man directly in WH, in the backs of both Dem and Osan'gar, btw - and giving them subtely different orders, focussed on recuperating anything in Rand's possession, killing him only if necessary. That sound a lot to me like an insurance policy : Moridin didn't want Demandred or any of the Chosen who could attack Rand to get the CK and Callandor, and by using the same people Dem sent, Moridin stalled him. That's why he told the Chosen that Rand had the CK I think. He wanted to check if any of them would move to get their hands on them, and he wanted the Chosen to be extremely reluctant of attacking Rand in person. Similarly, he ordered Isam to take care of Fain - at least so he told the Chosen, it's hard to take Moridin's words at face value and Isam's actions in WH are extremely confusing (IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the "dark prophecy" that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell. Isam's comment that except the Chosen only a few men know how to reach him but would not dare order him and they can't channel makes me think Padan Fain was one of them, and that's why he recognized him. Lanfear was also the one with the best motive to kill the Gray Man who was after the girls she was gearing toward Tear, and probably the one with the best motives to want Isam to keep Fain busy in the Two Rivers. In fact, I highly suspects that Lanfear planted the rumors about the TR in Tear in the first place, to send Perrin and Mat away. Those rumors were everywhere suddenly and travelled *really* fast. Mesaana probably ordered Isam to kill the BA sisters in Tear, though.)

Note that Moridin also subtely lied to the Chosen about the cleansing of Saidin and the CK - he makes a Cairhienin seem blatantly obvious. He made them believe that Cyndane told him about the CK and the fact Rand had find a woman strong enough to use it and what he intended to do with it. In the final chapter, Cyndane's POV reveals that she thinks something like "so, it was all true, and Rand has truly found a woman strong enough to use it with him, he betrayed me etc.". We were too busy with the final revelation she is Lanfear to note that what she says didn't match what she told the others earlier... She knew about the CK from Rhuidean, but that's all! Moridin made all the others believe that Cyndane knew more and tells him everything...

Now that raise the interesting question : why Moridin wanted the Chosen to believe the information came from Cyndane? For one, he identified Cyndane as his creature, completely. None of the others will ever trust her. He possibly protected his sources, which in this case were very likely Moghedien for the strength, the Caemlyn cronies for the disappearance of Nynaeve and Osan'gar who possibly told him about saidin.

But it also really sounds like Moridin seeked not to be even remotely associated with Rand's plan in the Chosen' minds - he just learned about it and now he wants them to stop him, bla, bla, bla. If that were so important, why not go there himself - he's the only one undetectable by Rand and presumably he's the only one alive who can channel without detection in Far Madding! He sure didn't put much efforts to stop Rand, just sending a bunch of Asha'man without Dashiva. And he didn't show up to stop Rand in the last chapter, when once again the True Power gave him a huge advantage over the others. Did Moridin or the DO really care to stop the cleansing of saidin? That sure doesn't sound like it. It sounds like Moridin playing sha'ra again, he sent all his pieces toward the Fisher, he forced them all to go. Note that this sha'ra strategy is one Moridin knows very well to cause bloodbaths. Let's see who is loyal and courageous enough to go in the Lion's den and may the strong survive and the weak perish?? (and let's keep the two Chosen who are doing something worthy (Mes and Sem) out of it??) Big bonus, Moridin can blame them all for their failure to stop Rand and increase his authority accordingly.

From the other side Moridin almost helped Rand or certainly didn't do much to hinder him, and certainly kept his hands off him. The game only starts when someone has the Fisher, and sometimes the best strategy is to let the other side handle the Fisher until the moment when you can seize him and make the last move to win the game. Demandred figured out late how Rand was to cleanse saidin. Moridin, OTOH, most likely knew all along - it was done according to philosophical principles and in doubt, he could ask the DO if what Rand planned was truly dangerous. But was Harid Fel, the philosopher, really going...hmm... Fishing?? Fishing, philosophy, Lord Barthanes' palace... it proves nothing, but it seems like a good way for RJ to point us to Ishamael. I don't think it's impossible that Moridin used Fel to confirm to Rand that he was on the right track to cleanse saidin, then he erased all traces of his deed by having Fel killed by a shadownspawn belonging to someone else. Of course, killing Fel was the best way to convince Rand that he was on the right track and that the Shadow didn't want him to do that. As we know, there's no better way to make the Fisher move, as Sorilea and a few others have also found out. Another clue might be Elza, the BA who swore fealty to Rand. Why does she says in Shadar Logoth that especially at this moment she is convinced that Rand much reach Tairmon Gaidon? Is that solely the result of Verin's Compulsion or Moridin interfered through her dreams? For a few reasons, I think it's "Baa'lzamon", the DO himself as far as she is concerned, who ordered her to stay right where she is and to serve Rand.

"I also think that Demandred might have Rand's little man angreal (thanks to 3 in a boat. I will write up a more ellaborate theory about this later)."

Is it Demandred, or it's Mazrim Taim who keeps it hidden as an insurance policy - caught as he is between a few Chosen? It's possible that Dem has it, but there's nothing in his POV's that clues us that he has it. If I were Demandred, I certainly would have brought it with me to Shadar Logoth, notably. It's a bit strange that he did not think of his own rather powerful an'greal when he noticed that Graendal had one.

"Demandred is the last free-standing male channeler left- and now that saidin is cleansed, he will some more liberty."

In the WH meeting, Moridin told the Chosen that the DO was sure they were all loyal.... for the time being (it's one of my clues that the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" was partly a test for the Chosen lead by Moridin/SH and that only Sammael failed). Graendal is the one to point out that the male channelers will all be in a precarious position if saidin is cleansed, an opinion Moridin makes sure to reinforce by his comment about the DO being sure of their loyalty... for now. Note that Graendal also knew about the CK in advance, a fact Demandred notices. And we know she was there before all the others and the setting she chose for the room is one she hates, another thing that Demandred wondered about. Now, would Graendal be clumsy enough to flaunts her knowledge of the CK in front of the hyper-dangerous Moridin or was she simply ordered by Moridin to say that, and to put on her little show about the CK that basically blamed Demandred in front of the others for being uncautious? Moridin certainly enters the room at the most interesting moment in that scene. Moridin also makes sure to point out the absence of Mesaana and the fact that he would have wanted her there, unsettling Demandred who start to worry that she could have broken their alliance. But was is the truth? Mesaana and Semirhage both were very busy and Moridin knew that - the imminent departure of Egwene's army he knew from Halima, notably. Did Moridin rather asked Mesaana and Semirhage *not* to come, precisely because he is trying to separate the little trio or has already done it? What better way to achieve it than make Demandred suspicious of his two allies and weaken his position at the meeting by their absence? For sure, Moridin did not seemed to have bothered ordering Mesaana, nor Semirhage, to go to Shadar Logoth, for all his claims that he wanted Mesaana at that meeting. My guess is that Moridin doesn't trust Demandred at this point, he sees him as his only potential adversary at this point. Moridin must have learned that Demandred tried to make himself the leader after his death. IMO, Demandred made one mistake : he obeyed the DO's LOC orders very well, but he bettered them by throwing some orders of his own in the mix and by keeping Sammael out of it, all to make himself Nae'blis. He must have pleased the DO to boast about it in front of him, but I'd bet he made the Naeblis wary...

Mesaana remarked in that chapter that the plan was totally like Demandred... strange a bit that she says that of the DO's plan, doesn't it? Thinking of where Sem and Mes were hidden and about the orders, Demandred also wondered how much the DO knew and since when. It's either a hint that Demandred was fooling the others by adding to the DO's orders "oh, isn't it convenient that he asks this, bla bla bla", or that there's really something a bit too "convenient" in the orders themselves, like for instance the DO ordered something that necessitated to have been planned a long time ago but that until now Demandred had not realized that they were heading toward that goal, and he believes that if was Ishamael's plan anyway, not the DO's. I take that as a hint that Ishamael and the DO share a plan for centuries and that the other Chosen are merely instruments in that plan - Ishamael always claimed to the Chosen to want one thing and in fact worked to gain another, with the DO's blessing. I'd bet this great plan wouldn't please the Chosen, not at all, and it's probably crucial that they don't discover what it is.

"I think it is also interesting to note that neither Mesaana nor Semmy appeared at Moridin's latest meeting- neither of these women appear to be under Moridin's same spectre of influence yet."

Apparently. Or they have joined Moridin's side already but are ordered not to let Demandred know. Mesaana and Semirhage worked closely with Ishamael initially, that much we can be sure of. IMO, Mesaana may have got enough incentives to switch sides already. Halima controls the rebel Amyrlin, Ishamael knows everything there is to know about the BA and has an history of ordering them from TAR. Mesaana is probably clever enough to understand that she has no choice but fall in line behind Ishamael reborn. Semirhage I'm less sure of, but look at the pattern : Moghedien placed Liandrin with Amadician DF merchants, Moghedien is captured by Moridin and forced to tell everything she knows, Liandrin suddenly pops up, still punished, as servant to Ishamael's agent Lady Suroth who in turn has access to Tuon. Suroth doesn't seem to respect or fear Anath the least bit, so she likely doesn't know who she is. Is Liandrin in charge of spying on Anath for Moghedien or was she placed there as a secret liaison agent between Semirhage and Moridin (communications through her dreams instead risking meetings in TAR between Sem and Moridin)?.

Presumably, Tuon doesn't do much without Semirhage's consent or knowledge. There sure is something fishy about the fact that Tuon ended up with Mat, and the fact that she was the one who ordered Suroth out of town with Tylin. It's all very very convenient - but I have no clue what really happened in Ebou Dar. Maybe Tuon really did it all in Anath's back because she was interested in Mat or Mat's escape, it's really RAFO. But when Mat started to suspect Tuon was stalking him, he notices that Anath was sometimes with her.

But ultimately, let's think in terms of the Great Game of Houses for a minute :

- Demandred doesn't trust Graendal because of a few things in WH : her comments about the CK, her angreal, her comments about Saidin.
- Cyndane and Moghedien are very established to the Chosen as Moridin's creatures. They have no allies.
- Osang'ar and Arang'ar are almost full proof because of the whole device that introduced them back : the DO named you, orders you, obey SH, Moridin is Naeb'lis - obey him.
- Mesaana and Semirhage are kept away from Demandred and he is becoming suspicious because of that.

So basically Moridin, before revealing that Rand had the Choedan Kal, made sure that no pair of Chosen would collaborate to use them. Demandred is the only one who could have dared, but Moridin ordered the men Demandred sent after Rand to bring anything they found to *him*. Very clever.


"I fully expect a return of Sammael, and a Sammael that is mindtrapped by Moridin. Plainly, Moridin needs good generals to marshall his armies, and who better than Sammael?"

If Demandred can't be tamed, then a mind-trapped Sammael sure would be convenient. But I wonder if Sammael's soul is still accessible to the DO or if it's Mashadar that got it.

"Do you realize that Moridin's faction has all the dreamwalkers (if you don't count those who enter dreamworld in the flash)."

Interesting, especially since important actions could happen in TAR - Moiraine's rescue, Isam vs. Perrin, Egwene, the Wise Ones. And we still have no clue why Verin sent Egwene there in the first place and what the notes of Corianin Nedeal contained (her spying on the summons of Ba'alzamon to the Black Ajah, IMHO. For some RAFO reason she couldn't trust anyone in the Tower so she decided to hide her notes instead of revealing what she learned. And she was very secretive about TAR and the terangreal that helped to go there so that only a full dreamer would go back to TAR).

"This faction probably also has the services of Isam"

Since the DO supposedly can order Isam directly (but I highly suspects Isam's DO is good old Ba'alzamon again), it's very likely that he will be instructed to obey the Nae'blis only, eventually. It's very interesting to note that his latest "boss" wanted to hide his identity from him, though - and why was Isam so sure he was male. Can he sense saidin/saidar or is it just the male disguise that made him think that? I think Moridin ordered Isam in WH, but it's hard to totally rule out that Demandred was acting in Moridin's back too, however dangerous it would be to use Isam for that, especially since he knows that Moridin is currently dealing with him re: Fain.

"and maybe a gholam as well."

Yup. I was thinking about the gholam, the fact that it recognized the itch of the True Power, the fact that Graendal stumbled into one and also found streith in a stasis box, about all the AOL artefacts that Sammael found including the cruel game. About the questions he asked whether other Chosen found stasis boxes and the silence they kept, about the fact that Moridin knew he could hear something interesting if he let a third callbox open... and about the timing of it all.

Graendal concluded that Sammael found a stasis box that belonged to a friend of the Dark of the AOL but then, she didn't know about the gholam. Who but a Chosen would have a gholam, let alone be able to control it? I conclude that Sammael and some of the others paid a little visit to that Shayol Ghul palace after Moridin's death and that Sammael found and stole Ishy's gholam and many objects, perhaps after Graendal first met Ishy's gholam and fled. That would explain Barthane's previous gholam-like murder. It will be very interesting to discover how a gholam is controlled, the key is there. It's possible that only the True Power can be used for that (explaining Graendal's comment that only a madman would have created such a thing), or perhaps the male gholam can't be controlled by female channelers and the female ones by males. Strange a bit that "Anath" does nothing in any case, reports about the "Vampire of Ebou Dar" reaching Tuon must have ring a bell.

"Semirhage is very lethal, and has access to da'mane."

And with Mesaana's help, she can easily replace the sul'dam by Black Ajah dreadlords overnight. And no matter what the Crystal Throne knows at this point, Semirhage must know very well that all the suld'am can learn to channel... And we've not been told over and over again that this news could shatter the Empire for nothing, I think...

"We have not really seen much of Mesaana's powers yet, but Mesaana does have access to most of the BA."

Except that Moridin very likely can supersede any of her orders as Ba'alzamon, and the BA are used to that - that's how they were ordered before Mesaana arrived. And I'm sure Moridin did not forget a single BA name in two years. Moridin has the advantage of being able to reach in dreams the sisters away from the Tower (as of now, I think Mesaana is the only Forsaken alive we've never ever seen in TAR yet). Mesaana, OTOH, has the head BA in her pocket for now.

"I would LOVE to see such a showdown."

Me too. I fear Demandred might feel a little bit lonely when this happen, though!

"I also predict that Sammael and possibly Asmodean will make their returns in the next book. RJ did give us that whole hint about Sammael being dead. Is that so that it will be easier but us to swallow that fact that he will be back alive in CoT?"

I doubt Asmodean will be brought back but I wish it, if only to read Graendal's reaction scene when comes face to face with him! I think Moridin might also rise a few people to "lower" Chosen status under his total control before the end, Alviarin and Mazrim Taim are two of my favorite candidates. Somehow I expect soon enough many Chosen will be "grounded" as governors of Moridin's newly conquered lands. It's gonna be ugly when the Blight awakes (very good position for a mind-trapped Sammy to make a comeback, at the head of Moridin's shadownspawn armies invading the Borderlands during the White Tower/Black Tower conflicts, and very convenient moment to do it while the Seanchan are moving toward Illian and the WT/BT channelers have their hands full. Thanks to Graendal's little scheme before SH's visit, there's also some messy rumors about Arad Doman that have reached Far Madding in WH, but I can't remember what it was, war with Saldaea or something like that?).

"The third thing is Rand's wound in his side. Moiraine, among others, commented often that some lingering evil (perhaps a strange True Power residue?) remained that prevented the wound from healing fulling."

There is most likely the taint involved, Rand's solution to cleanse saidin in Shadar Logoth came from the way his two wounds repelled one another. Interestingly enough, the wounds were not altered by the cleansing or the destruction of SL. I have a sketchy theory that the wound was inflicted by Ishamael for a precise purpose and that's why he doesn't want Rand to die before TG, if that can be avoided. Maybe the DO intends to use Rand or someone else powerful as a physically vessel, ideally Rand because he's the most powerful of them all, the wound might be his entry to Rand's body. I guess His powers might be limited when he jumps into the pattern, a bit like Mashadar/Mordeth that can do many things but seems more and more concretely powerful now that he uses Fain. Rand would have to let the DO jump into the pattern, because only this way can he be defeated, by killing Rand and sheding the tainted blood of the wound.


"Moiraine might have had some because they'd been tucked away in the Tower for the Creator knows how long."

Hmmm... I'm with Three in a Boat on that, Moiraine "bonded" the TV coins somehow, they were ter'angreal IMO. In fact, she probably mildly bonded the boys through the coins, using the coins as a contact. Remove the contact, the bond is cut - a bit like an electrical contact.

"Not even the Forsaken knew how to do it. Isn't that right?"

Actually, we still have no proof about ter'angreal, but it's highly unlikely they have the means to make angreals, even if the scientists among them may know the theory behind their making. I guess most of them probably have the theorical knowledge to make basic ter'angreal but nothing useful, so they don't bother. Maybe those require saidin (now tainted) or big rings of channelers to be made, or else it's a Talent that they don't have. It's one thing to know roughly how a clock, a lightbulb or a gun work (let alone a homing device), it's another to make one that works. I guess that even if it's a Talent at the root, each new kind of ter'angreal required special research and knowledge to create. It seems to me that Elayne just opened one clock and copied it, and not flawlessly at that. She has yet to create something of her own.

This is the answer to Matrimony's question "Why is Ishamael so important?"
Mostly what I did was synthesize Dom's own words to answer the question he himself hinted at.


First, let me quote Dom:
"The problem around FoH was that the Chosen were almost all having their little plan on the side... I don't think any is a true "traitor", but they have peculiar ideas of what would please the DO."

Also Dom --- "Ishamael and the DO share a plan for centuries and that the other Chosen are merely instruments in that plan - Ishamael always [worked] with the DO's blessing."

Ok, now the reason Ishamael is so important is that he has no "little plans on the side", his goals coincide perfectly with the DO. The other Forsaken have petty desires to get revenge on "Lews Therin" ( Demandred & Sammael) or have obsessions with pain/pleasure ( Semherige & Grandael). Ishamael has no such problems. He is the only one of the Chosen that truely understands the DO's goals. Ishy wrote essays and entire books about the subject in the AoL after he went over to the Shadow.


Matrimony --- "Moridin definitely is moving around agents. I think to what purpose, however, is a strictly RAFO matter."

Dom --- "As always! But there's definitely a pattern since ACoS : he's getting more and more control over the Chosen from book to book."

Two words: Tarmon Gaidon. Moridin know what the DO wants, "FREEDOM!" All the other Chosen tend to be shortsighted, only looking for their own personal gain. Moridin does nothing for personal gain. In the same way Rand is uniting the squabbling nations of the world before the Last Battle, Ishy is focused on uniting the Chosen for TG, suppressing their internal backbiting so that they can stand against the common foe. Most of the Forsaken are just like the foolish nobles that Rand constantly has to deal with. In my opinion, the final rounds of The Great Game will be played in the Last Battle!



"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the (very clever) theory itself, you have certainly stirred up the most interesting conversation in ages.

Building on what mad Ashaman says: Rand & Moridin/Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai are equals because they are altruistic & self sacrificing. Rand is prepared to sacrifice his life (as he believes will happen) to defeat the DO. Moridin (IMO) also knows he will die if the DO's plan of destroying the pattern is achieved. They are prepared for this because each thinks he is doing the right thing.

"Isam's actions in WH are extremely confusing"

As far as I recall, Isam did not play a very large role in WH. Most of what we saw was Isam killing too older people. My WH is not as strong as the rest of my wot knowledge, but I think he said that he wished he had killed his nephew (Rand).
It is confusing to think of who he might have killed, however.

" (IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the "dark prophecy" that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell. "

Makes total sense- You should write up a theory on this point alone- I have seen no one else suggest this yet, but it is very logical.



"From the other side Moridin almost helped Rand or certainly didn't do much to hinder him, and certainly kept his hands off him."

Moridin, has aided Rand on at least one occasion (with Sammael), and probably several more. We know that Moridin is helping keep Rand alive by eliminating those who mean to kill Rand (Sammael, Fain, Demandred, ect.).

I have 2 theories in waiting to be posted speculating that Moridin is not only helping Rand, but that he is also helping those closest to Rand. Rand is not a one-man show, and if Moridin means to manipulate the fisher and allow the opposing side to hold until the right moment, then he needs to allow several of Rand's allies to stay in power (if in a manipulated fashion).

This includes Min, Elayne, and Aviendha. Hopefully these theories get posted (it seems quite difficult these days to get a theory posted- even if it is good), cause I think they will stir interesting blackboard debate.

Moridin could easily go and destroy/assasinate all Rand's allies, but the timing is not yet stragecally correct on the sharah board. My basic point is that 'Letting the LoC rule' involves not just letting Rand live, but also letting his whole adminstration and teamates live.



" The game only starts when someone has the Fisher, and sometimes the best strategy is to let the other side handle the Fisher until the moment when you can seize him and make the last move to win the game."

True, true. There are unseen plans and things we don't know about yet that are preventing Moridin from wiping out Rand right now.


" But was Harid Fel, the philosopher, really going...hmm... Fishing?? Fishing, philosophy, Lord Barthanes' palace... it proves nothing, but it seems like a good way for RJ to point us to Ishamael. I don't think it's impossible that Moridin used Fel to confirm to Rand that he was on the right track to cleanse saidin, then he erased all traces of his deed by having Fel killed by a shadownspawn belonging to someone else."

This is a good point. I especially like your analogy between Fel 'fishing' and the 'fisher' on the sharah board. This could be a subtle element of Moridin's humor.



"Presumably, Tuon doesn't do much without Semirhage's consent or knowledge. There sure is something fishy about the fact that Tuon ended up with Mat, and the fact that she was the one who ordered Suroth out of town with Tylin. It's all very very convenient - but I have no clue what really happened in Ebou Dar. Maybe Tuon really did it all in Anath's back because she was interested in Mat or Mat's escape, it's really RAFO. But when Mat started to suspect Tuon was stalking him, he notices that Anath was sometimes with her."

Yes- Semirhage undoubtedly knows who Mat is. Should lead into something interesting in the next book. Mat will get strung to yet another women, and one that happens to be a forsaken this time. I'm sure RJ will somehow find a way to make it suspenseful, humorous, dramatic, adventurous, and possibly tragic at the same time.




"- Mesaana and Semirhage are kept away from Demandred and he is becoming suspicious because of that."

This is probably true. But Mesaana and Semirhage will still have to make a choice. Mesaana was the one who was afraid of a higher plan. Mesaana probably knows enough of Ishmael from the AoL to realize some of what he is after, and may join Demmy just because she doesn't want to be one of Moridin's pawns. The same might also be true with Semirhage.





Let's look into the question of: Who is Ishmael??

I think it goes very deep. Recall all Ishmaels ramblings about dueling with Rand countless time in different ages.
I think that Ishmael is intimately died with the DO in ways that we do not know yet.
I think Ishmael may even be the anti-dragon, or the DO's protagonist, in the same way that Rand is the Creator's protagonist.
It makes sense that Ishmael and Rand are each others equals, especially in a mythological perspective. RJ's series is about balance, and for the Creator to use a powerful soul like the Dragon, it probably means that the DO has a soul that is also just as powerful.
It's the same kind of good vs. evil story that runs through almost all stories.



ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.

for a scene in one of the books I thought I remembered where Sammael and Greandal had just talked to Sevanna and were having a little chat. I thought I remembered Moridin watching them and then Shadar Haran watching everything. But I didn't find it, if it even exsists, but what I did find was the scene where Shadar Haran was watching Sammy and says he has been to far from Shayol Ghul. It then says he turns to find the edge of shadow that it needed, persumably to travel Myrdraal like. In an earlier scene "The Watcher", Moridin, is also spying on Sammy and Greandal, but when he leaves he rips a TP hole. If they are one in the same, why travel to different ways?

Another interesting tidbit from this scene, located at the end of "Patterns within Patterns" in aCoS, is this. "[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true." Now, if the DO and Moridin have this elaborate plan to create chaos and bring all the chosen to heel you would think Moridin would know if the DO all but promised Sammael the Nae'Blisship, you'd think it would be part of the plan.

Also, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier for Moridin if he just mind trapped them all? That way, he has access to all the proxies, darkfriends, groups, plans and whatnot, without all this really complex Daes Damar (spelling) craziness. And its not like it would be difficult at all either, just do like they did to Moggy, summon them to SG, have Shadar Haran do his thing and walla, a nice, new, shiny strokable ornament around Ishy's neck. Its not like they can do a better job at spreading Chaos and such free, Ishy can give them all a certain amount of autonomy in their work. He can just set a goal and have them work for it, whichever way they want, he doesn't need to watch over their shoulders 24/7.

Don't get me wrong, I dig everything you guys have come up with, (though I strongly doubt Shadar Haran is the same as Moridin) and I compliment you on all the thought and Brains put into this whole thing, I thought for a few minutes on what Moridin meant by that whole Sha'ra POV, but I never connected things like you have. I even think its mostly true, though it would save ishy a hellofalot of effort if he just mindtrapped the lot of them. He's had 3000 years to come up with this master plan, he's probably so caught up in his own cleverness he can't see the easy way. I do that often.

"[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true."

I don't know if you've quoted that exactly (obviously you put the ... and brackets in...heh, and mispelled Graendal though I doubt that was delibrate ), but if you did Moridin could well be talking about the truce with Lews Therin.

You know this is what I want from wotmania discussions. It doesn't work in chat because everything moves too quickly, it doesn't work on the message board because the topic's disappeared in 2 days, so the only place left is the theory post blackboard...unfortunately even that doesn't have a section where it tells you when a blackboard is updated.

Anyway, I agree with you Dom, Moridin is pulling all the strings here. However, some things you've mentioned are no doubt just what they seem to be, Fel for example.

Oh and for the person who said that Moridin and Rand are equal because they both expect to sacrifice themselves for their cause...I don't know if Moridin will die or even expects to, but even if he did he wouldn't have any worry, he can just be bought back to life.

I definitly don't think the DO will enter anyone's body as a vessel. Firstly it would just be so lame, Jordan wouldn't do it, secondly if he was going to enter the pattern why would he name someone the Great Lord's Regent on Earth? (There you go "WoT is Earth" fans, there's something for you to drool over.)

Matrimony --- "My WH is not as strong as the rest of my wot knowledge, but I think he said that he wished he had killed his nephew (Rand)."

Slayer as Luc is Rand's uncle. Slayer as Isam is Lan's uncle. At the time, Slayer was Isam so the reference to his nephew was a reference to Lan, not Rand. ( Confused yet? ). If you re-read that scene, you will notice that the people Slayer killed resemble Lan and Nyaneve.


Bastion ---"[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true."
Three in a Boat ---"Moridin could well be talking about the truce with Lews Therin."

Moridin was talking about Sammael's claim of a treaty with Rand.


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

Matrimony --- "My WH is not as strong as the rest of my wot knowledge, but I think he said that he wished he had killed his nephew (Rand)."

Slayer as Luc is Rand's uncle. Slayer as Isam is Lan's uncle. At the time, Slayer was Isam so the reference to his nephew was a reference to Lan, not Rand. ( Confused yet? ). If you re-read that scene, you will notice that the people Slayer killed resemble Lan and Nyaneve.


Bastion ---"[Sammael claiming to be Nae'blis] explained what had brought Greandal to heel...An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true."
Three in a Boat ---"Moridin could well be talking about the truce with Lews Therin."

Moridin was talking about Sammael's claim of a treaty with Rand.


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

My mistake, I just re-read the scene myself and Slayer was Luc at the time, so he was refering to Rand. And the two people he killed were both old. What was I thinking?


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

Didn't I say that Slayer in WH was quite confusing! Moridin supposedly had him after Fain, yet he kills a couple who is closer in age to Lan and Nynaeve and seemed to believe he would kill his nephew... who is Rand (it's interesting that he knows about Tigraine's son, in any case - who the heck told him that?? The only one beside Rand who has all the necessary information and could puzzle it out is... Moiraine, presumably kept in a certain Tower around which Birgitte and Perrin happened to have seen Slayer).

Anyway... later in the WH chapter Slayer thinks back on the pleasures of the murders he committed in Tear, noting on the side that in fact he was Isam and not Luc when he did it, but that was the same for him. So they share their sensations and memories... Thus, he could think of both Lan and Rand as his nephews not matter if he's Luc or Isam, except for one thing : isn't Isam Lan's cousin, not his uncle? I thought Isam's father was the younger brother of Lan's father.

However, Slayer still has a second nephew : Galad Damodred.

Also interesting in that chapter is Slayer's boss, who wanted to keep his identity secret. He didn't seem to worry a lot that Slayer "failed" as if he lied to him about his mission's real goal in the first place. I'd have to read the chapter again, but doesn't the new assignment the Chosen gives to Slayer after this murder hints strongly that he is indeed Moridin and not another Chosen who could have wanted Rand to die (such as Dem)?

The very reassuring part about that chapter was that RJ has obviously not forgotten about all the little unresolved mysteries from the early books like who sent this or that Gray Man and will spread elements of solution along the road.

I should have started my earlier quote a line sooner. This is a direct quote, with no ... to make it shorter and no brakets.
"The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Sammael to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true."
In hindsight, it probably would've been easier for me just to quote it directly last night and not screw with the brackets and ...'s and all that. Mark it down as a case of me be blinded by my own supposed cleverness. When I quote it correctly it becomes very clear Moridin is talking about Sammael's claim to Nae'blis, NOT Sammael's claimed truce with Rand. Sorry to cause confusion. If you want to make sure I quoted correctly and see the context the quote is the second to last paragraph in the chapter called "Patterns Within Patterns" in aCoS.

curse, cuss sputter, sputter, curse!!!! I messed up again!!!! I should proof read these things before I hit the submit button. (More Curseing) replace "What had brought Sammael to heel" with "What had brought Greandal to heel". Man, here I thought I had cleared up everthing only to find on more mistake. URRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

"The only one beside Rand who has all the necessary information and could puzzle it out is... Moiraine, presumably kept in a certain Tower around which Birgitte and Perrin happened to have seen Slayer)."

Moiraine could be his method, but there is another: himself. Luc was the killer of Janduin, Rand's Aiel father. Janduin was about to kill Luc until he recognized the strong ressemblence to Shaiel, his dead wife. What was Luc doing fighting Janduin in the 1st place?? Was he trying to revenge the loss of his sister's life, who became a Maiden because of the Aiel influence?






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You’re right Dom, Isam’s PoV in WH is confusing. I did manage to find something that might be useful though

Dom ---"(IMO, Lanfear ordered Isam at least once. I'm pretty sure she asked him to rescue Fain from the prison in GH. Thus the "dark prophecy" that mentions him and mentions her victory over Rand. A better hand than a Trollocs', likely a Fade's? Hmm... rather Isam's hand, I think. The butchery is very much like him, in any case, and so is the apparition from nowhere in Fain's cell."

I think Lanfear ordered Slayer more than once. WH gives us conformation from Slayer himself that he killed the two captured BA sisters. The important fact to consider is that the Black sisters were killed while the Stone was full of Trollocs, some of them sent by Lanfear to attack the other Trollocs. Isam killed the Black Sisters while the battle raged. Now, the only Chosen who could have known enough to make use of this distraction to send Isam were the one who sent the first Trollocs (I can’t remember who and can’t find the reference) and Lanfear.

The Chosen who sent the first Trollocs probably wouldn’t send Isam, if they wanted to kill the black sisters, they would have used some of the Trollocs already there and make it look like a random murder. Either that or they would kill the two after they had control of the Stone. It was obvious that the death of the BA sisters was not the point of the attack.

Lanfear, however, is a prime suspect. She has probably ordered Isam before and she had the opportunity to call him in. You may note that I have no clue why Lanfear would order Isam to kill them, but why would any of the other Chosen?


To Matrimony:
You're right that Luc killed Janduin, but I don't think Luc knew or cared who Janduin was. Luc was probably just out hunting for anything to kill; wolves, people, etc.


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

Those shadowspawns were sended by Sammael and Semirhage. Reason why she sended those was direct order from DO (My source is her POV during early LoC).
I think that those 2 BA were killed bc they were failures. After all sometimes failure in service of Shadow is capital crime.

it can still be easily read as talkign about the truce with LTT.

"An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true."

The unless could simply mean that claiming a truce with LTT is a risk, unless it's true, in which case it is hardly a risk at all and shouldn't be even compared to claiming to have been promised Nae'blis.

I thought Sammael "sended" the Trollocs, but I wasn't sure.
My point is that the initial attack and the killing of the two BA were not related. Lanfear and Be'lal used the BA to capture the girls (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve) and lure Rand to the Stone. Since the girls escaped, the BA failed, and Lanfear would want to punish the BA sisters who were stupid enough to get caught. Sammael and Semherage were no part of it.


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

"Moiraine could be his method, but there is another: himself. Luc was the killer of Janduin, Rand's Aiel father. Janduin was about to kill Luc until he recognized the strong ressemblence to Shaiel, his dead wife. What was Luc doing fighting Janduin in the 1st place?? Was he trying to revenge the loss of his sister's life, who became a Maiden because of the Aiel influence?"

I'm not sure if I get it right but I remember the story that way : Gita Moroso foretold something about Luc and Tigraine. They were both studying at the Tower. She sent them separately in the Waste. We know that she told Tigraine the fate of the World depended on her becoming a Maiden. The substance of her foretelling about Luc we still have no clue about, but I suspect Luc died at Isam's hands eventually. Unless Moroso told Luc that his sister was to give birth to the Dragon reborn - and given her other foretelling about the birth on Dragonmount and the fact Siuan, Moiraine etc. were not looking for an Aiel in New Spring I highly doubt that even Gita Moroso knew the end of it or at least told Luc or anyone else - then Luc probably learned about it from another source.

By the Wise Ones, Moiraine knows more than enough of the story to puzzle it out, but unless Slayer is the one who is keeping her prisonner in the Finn's worlds or has brought her from there to the Tower of Ghenjei (Ishy or the DO might not want her dead for RAFO reasons) I don't see why Moiraine would tell either Luc or Isam willingly about the Dragon, not after the Dark Prophecy (Isam looks just like Lan and she must know Luc personally, he is her brother-in-law).

We know that Ishamael didn't know early on about Tigraine and Rand's birth because of the actions of the BA in New Spring, nor he knew in the EotW era because it's not really difficult to pick out Tigraine Mantear's son among Rand, Perrin and Mat. Beside Ishamael, the Chosen probably don't know that Tigraine ever existed - they don't even seem to realize that Rand is half Aiel, at least none of them made a cynical remark about LTT being reborn as an Aiel, for all the despise they have for the so-called Aiel.

Lady Dyelin seems to have figure it out, maybe others close to the Andor court too but then it must not be so obvious either since Morgase, Elaida etc. have not made the connection and Rand is said to look like Tigraine. In any case, it's not longer certain that Moridin doesn't know who Rand's parents were and he could have revealed it to Slayer when he assigned him his mission, for a twist. One wonders why Slayer refers to Min as "the wench", though. It sounds like he knows Rand and his people already.

Another person who might have figure out the connection between Rand and Tigraine is Verin. She obviously figured out stuff from the Moroso era and she had clues about Luc Mantear being involved from the Dark Prophecy. Actually, she could have recognized "Lord Luc" in the Two Rivers and kept quiet about it for her own reasons. She certainly found "interesting" that the Trollocs shouted ISAM! (like they shouted BA'ALZAMON! in the Trolloc Wars, something she studied closely). Interestingly, now that Slayer seems to get closer to Rand, Verin who might have figured out Luc/Isam and have met Lord Luc is around Rand too. Verin is definitely in great danger if Isam or Luc show up.

It's also amazing to see all these connections/oppositions between Slayer and Moiraine. The Tower of Ghenjei, they're in-laws, Moiraine was bonded to Isam's cousin Lan, both were involved with Gita Moroso, Tigraine and Moiraine were students at the Tower together and for that matter Luc was training as warder too, aunt and uncle of the Dragon Reborn...

I remember now another interesting detail about that murder Slayer committed. He was using two poisonned daggers, that's strikingly similar to those AOL duel blades who gave their name to Osan'gar and Aran'gar. They were poisonned too. I forgot to mention that earlier but that's yet another one of my clues that Moridin is playing sh'ra against the Chosen. That form of duel was not popular for long because both duellists usually died from the poison. Moridin put Osan'gar with Demandred's cronies supposedly to help and Aran'gar with the rebels AS supposedly to help Mesaana, but in truth Moridin's Gars were poisonned gifts. Dashiva sure proved as a poisonned gift for Demandred if controls Taim, Halima being in control of the Amyrlin who is coming to depose Mesaana's pawns sure could play the same role in book 10.

"I think Lanfear ordered Slayer more than once. WH gives us conformation from Slayer himself that he killed the two captured BA sisters. The important fact to consider is that the Black sisters were killed while the Stone was full of Trollocs, some of them sent by Lanfear to attack the other Trollocs."

The DO might have ordered Slayer himself, but since I still believe that the DO gets all his information from people, shadowspawn etc. and that he plays on this like a master to leave the Chosen wonder what he really knows (ie : the Fades Sammael asked to attack Tear reported to the DO before leaving Shayol Ghul and the DO asked Semirhage to send another group to fight them, or else the DO is always aware of what the shadowspawn do anyway), I'd say it's rather a Chosen who ordered the BA killed.

We can put some money on Mesaana who had the strongest motives : clean up her the mess after her failure of the operation and protecting the secrets the BA might reveal to Rand and co. etc.

But it could still be Lanfear. After all she works for the Shadow and as she was in the Stone she could have learned that two BA sisters were made prisonners and jumped to TAR to order Isam to execute them. It would certainly help her explains why she was there at all if another Chosen saw her. And Mesaana would be confused as to what happened to her sisters, in whose hands they are and what they could have revealed. She might wonder too if the DO is angry with her failure or something. Yup, that sounds like good old Lanfear all right.


I think it's also Lanfear who asked Slayer to kill the Gray Man in the Tower since she was the one who manipulated the girls to go to Tear in the first place. I guess that's when the encounter with Lanfear Alviarin refered to occured. Lanfear questionned her about the orders given to the BA.

That we know of, that leaves the Two Rivers second attack with Trollocs. That could be Lanfear again. She knew that Fain was after Rand and had the motives to want him dead or at least kept away from her dear Lews Therin. A Chosen involved with the Whitecloaks might also have wanted "Ordeith" dead. Ishamael might also have ordered Isam to find and kill Fain before being killed by Rand. In fact, he is the most likely suspect since he speaks of that again in WH.


"The unless could simply mean that claiming a truce with LTT is a risk, unless it's true, in which case it is hardly a risk at all and shouldn't be even compared to claiming to have been promised Nae'blis."

And I guess there is even a third way to read it, since Moridin is thinking and not speaking aloud. He didn't have to tell himself "but I know that it's not true since I am the Nae'blis". He could have been thinking that claiming to be Nae'blis was not a risk for him, but that after the truce this was a second strike against Sammael. Notice that he was wondering if Graendal was or wasn't following the DO's orders and why : "Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that." In other words, Moridin just got his reason for not killing Graendal or not putting her in a cou'souvra : she was not really betraying the DO's orders transmitted by Demandred, she was fooled by Sammael's claim that the DO gave him different orders and promised him Nae'blis. In fact, Graendal wanted Sammael to kill Rand or get caught trying and get blamed - but Moridin got fooled about her true motives for not killing Sammael. That's another proof that he was testing the Chosen's loyalty.

"Lanfear and Be'lal used the BA to capture the girls (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve) and lure Rand to the Stone. Since the girls escaped, the BA failed, and Lanfear would want to punish the BA sisters who were stupid enough to get caught."

I thought Graendal said somewhere that Mesaana has been working with Be'lal on that one. The 13 BA were there to trap and capture Rand when he took Callandor. Be'lal wanted Callandor, Mesaana would get Rand. When it failed Ishamael panicked and attacked Rand.

It doesn't make much sense that the girls were to be used as bait by Lanfear, neither her nor Be'lal lift a finger to let Rand know about their presence! It was much easier for Lanfear to kidnap Nynaeve and Egwene herself in the Tower and deliver them to Be'lal if that was their mutual plan. Lanfear lured the girls to Tear in secret to pester Be'lal and the Black Ajah, and she did it in Mesaana and Be'lal's backs. Some other Chosen tried to stop them (and Rahvin tried to get Elayne for himself), but it didn't work.

It seems I stil haven't cleared anything up with my last post of the quote, so I will add even more. This is the quote, "The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true." and here is the very next line, "The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomarrow's."
So the whole thing together should read, "The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomarrow's."
I really don't know what to say if this doesn't convince you he's talking about Sammael's claim to Nae'blis, 3 in a Boat.

Well, you know, if you'd just given the entire quote in the first place I wouldn't have needed convincing.

I'm pretty certain Moiraine isn't Rand's aunt. The lines connecting them are tenuous at best. Rand's mother was Tigraine and his father was Janduin. For Moiraine to be Rand's aunt she'd have to be sister to either of these...she isn't. I think (though please correct me if I'm wrong) that Moiraine was half-sister to Taringail, who was once married to Tigraine (and gave her Galad and would later give Morgase Elayne and Gawyn), yet he is no relation to Rand either.

that Slayer killed Janduin.

There is something deeper going on there- especially since Janduin was married to Tigraine.

RJ does not use coincidences in the WoT.

Slayer is a fascinating character- he is actually one of my favorites in WoT.

RJ will reveal more about him-

and we will learn what the story behind slayer.

But we cannot simply dismiss Slayer's association with Janduin, what really happened??




ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.

that Slayer will play a larger role in the next book, possibly to his death (if we can't kill Forsaken in even numbered books we'll have to settle for the closest thing!). My reason is that RJ obviously hasn't shown him entering the Tower of Genji for no reason and the next book seems likely to focus on the Finns quite heavily.

I'm sure he'll die at some point, but the question is, who will kill him? There are 3 likely candidates, Perrin, Lan and Rand. If it wasn't for the relation of Luc/Isam to Rand/Lan I'd say Perrin for sure, Slayer likes to kill wolves and he almost seems his enemy like the gholam is Mat's. However, there's no way that Jordan won't have him meeting either Rand or Lan or possibly both at some point. My suspicions are with Lan, I doubt Rand would have any worries about striking down some uncle he's never seen before (besides, why would Rand have to worry about Slayer, he's clearly the stronger), whereas for Lan to discover he's not the Last of the Malkieri and then have to fight his cousin...that'd be difficult for him.

Then again who'd have thought Lanfear would be killed by Moiraine. Perhaps someone totally suprising will finish him...Egwene say.

Now that I mention that, isn't it about time one of Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene, Min...killed someone (human)? Ok, perhaps not Min, she's never going to be important in battles, but the others need toughening up for what's to come! Ok, I'm being harsh on Nynaeve too, she did try and kill Rahvin despite only wanting to Heal.

Why bust Fain out of Fal Dara in the first place? They certainly didn't need a hound after that. They knew who and where Rand was, they even made a sorry attempt to kill him. The only thing I can figure is that Ishy wanted to lure Rand to Falme to fulfill some dark prohpesy, and try to turn him, as was is his plan even now, but that points more to Ishy ordering Slayer to make the break then Lanfear, and the writing on the wall was just a tastier bit of bait for Rand and a confusing twist for us. I supppose the DO could have ordered Lanfear to set the whole thing up. I'm just pointing out that Ishy had more reason to break out Fain then Lanfear did, I can't see any motive for Lanfear.

but if wotmania doesn't hire Dom and 3 in a Boat to write up the FAQ section, we'll all be missing out.

1) Asha'man attack on Sun Palace: It's not hard to know that Rand is in his rooms... Everyone seems to always know if he's in town... there's numerous instances where Rand arrives in one palace or another, and before he even reaches his destination within, everyone seems to know.

Also, you don't even mention some sort of inverted weave trap or trigger that would notify someone who had set it that Rand was near that throne in the sitting room. Maybe him dropping the crown there triggered it? Maybe they thought he was sitting in it because of that triggering?

Also, his "staring off into nothing" could have been some sort of instinctive detection of that inverted weave... wondering what he was feeling... or it could have been something as innocent as him listening to LTT in his head.

2) Remember that the Asha'man that went nuts down there with Min had tried to use the power to move the walls about to make "a tower to protect her in"... it's possible Taim felt that and pinpointed it. (Lucky that the bad guys didn't I guess)...

3) Taim mentioned to Perrin (I think) using gateways to travel quickly in hops of a few miles at a time to find where they were. This is actually a better explaination than your own, because it explains the delay in finding him, but their sudden appearance. Also, if Taim is Demandred... remember that Demandred was working with Sevanna at the time, and knew of the planned attack through her I believe... or at least was keeping an eye on her. At the very least, he knew where they were through the Shaido. Hell, even if he didn't leap about with gateways trying to find him (or if he did just to fake that he didn't know to the other Asha'man with him), he probably "showed up just in time" because he didn't know of the planned attack and needed to stop it because of his orders to "let the lord of chaos rule"... Light knows he didn't want Rand in Sevanna's control.

4) Taim sent the gray man... the gray man knew where Rand was... Taim knew where the gray man was. It's not hard to track Rand in the palace usually, right? Hell, everyone else seems to just walk in on him... why not a gray man?

5) Remember that Mordin is rather intelligent (if insane still)... and knows a lot about the plots between the forsaken (er, Chosen)... He probably knew about Sammy's plan to bring the battle to Shadar Logoth. It seemed kinda obvious to LTT that Sammy wouldn't want to destroy what he already held in the battle to keep it... if LTT knew that, Ishy did to.

6) Also remember that Rand is Ta'va'ren... and that if odd things happen in a place, people can assume he's there... thus the rumors of Rand being wherever he is, even when he's not wanting to be seen.

Mesaana and Be'lal joining temporarily to capture Rand and get Callandor. He also said something about Lanfear ordering Slayer to kill the Gray Man (I totally agree with that) so the Wonder Girls could make it to Tear safe and sound. Then "she doesn't lift a finger" to let Rand know they are there.

That's because she visited Mat Cauthon in the White Tower earlier in that book (tDR) and he found out from her. She wanted to make sure all three boys were there. Rand knew he had to go anyway to get Callandor.

To return to the original issue, I believe there ARE some things that might be homing devices for locating Rand, but not to kill him. Let's take a look at how the Forsaken are NOT going after Rand:

-Ishmael (back when he WAS Ishmael) escaped Rand once, fought him on Toman Head specifically to give him the wound (later explained--see below), and "panicked" when all did not go according to plan in the Stone of Tear (I hadn't considered that, but sounds good)--as Moridin, he's gone out of his way to even help Rand and his companions in some cases
-Sammael called truce
-Mesaana, since tDR, has made no further moves against him
-Graendal has doing NOTHING to provoke him
-Semirhage has simply been busy with the Seanchan, and doesn't appear to move outside her own plans without adequate backup (i.e. Mesaana, Demandred and maybe Moridin)
-Moghedien is not the type to go after the Dragon Reborn, but even so, the Spider's had other irons in the fire
-Lanfear helps Rand early on and shows considerable patience with him--she only wants to kill him now because she's now forced to take orders from Moridin as Cyndane, and because Rand rejected her love
-Demandred WANTS to kill Rand, but visited Shayol Ghul in the prologue of LoC, where the DO made it abundantly clear that the DO and ONLY the DO will be deciding who will live or die from now on
-Halima/Balthamel/Aran'gar is ignoring Rand at the moment
-Osan'gar/Aginor/Dashiva tried to warn Rand about Callandor's faults and MAY have saved him from the DF Asha'man (Demandred's cronies?)
-Asmodean, though he didn't have much choice, wisened up Rand a bunch
-The DO himself needs Rand alive, I believe (just wait, the theory is coming... )

The Forsaken who went up against Rand:
-Be'lal found out the hard way
-Aginor and Balthamel were fried to a crisp in tEotW
-Sammael didn't want to fight, but Rand forced him and he either died or was trapped by Moridin
-Asmodean TRIED to run away, but was caught
-Lanfear was settled (in some fashion, anyway) by Moiraine
-Rahvin is "yesterday's news" (balefire joke)
-Osan'gar lost his cool in WH and was destroyed (let's hope for the last time, that punk)

So, why does the DO need Rand alive? I believe there is a direct correlation between Rand's wound and the Bore (see pending theory "Rand's Wound _IS_ The Bore"--hope they post that soon). The DO plans to finally, after losing this cursed battle a thousand times, to enter the physical world through Rand al'Thor, the most powerful channeler there is. If it turns out he can only "touch the world" it will then be through the wound.

When the wound is sealed at Shayol Ghul during TG, the DO will then be resealed. Ishmael went to Toman Head with the agenda to give Rand the wound so his master would grant him Nae'blis status. The wound would enhance the taint and eventually kill Rand, but if the Forsaken were to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule," he would live long enough for the DO to escape his prison.

Fain's dagger complicated this. While the two evils fight each other off inside him, Rand's quality of life is bettered, but he still has a problem. He must have the wound healed to defeat the Shadow.

Sorry most of this is off the issue of the homing devices.

Best discussion yet, WotMania lovers! Let's keep it going!

Oh, and Dom? You're still the man/woman!

-Braidtugger

Oh, and I totally forgot to add (will be in main theory when it's published):

Rand comes close to breaking open his wound several times but doesn't. Each time the wound actually does bleed, a broken or crumbling seal is found soon thereafter.

Just a tag,

-Braidtugger

Braidtugger, you're too nice! (and it's man, btw). It's true we seem to agree on many things...

"I'm pretty certain Moiraine isn't Rand's aunt"

Damn, you're absolutely right Three in a Boat. She has no blood tie to Rand - I was totally mistaken. She is Elayne, Gawyn and Galad's aunt (or half-aunt if that exists, whatever) through their father Taringail who was her half-brother. She will be on the fringe of Rand's extended family if he marries Elayne but otherwise the closest she can connected to Rand is by saying that she was his mother's half-sister-in-law when Taringail was married to her. In our world, that's not enough to consider her Rand's aunt. I was wrong about her family link to Slayer too, Taringail doesn't tie him to Moiraine, his wedding to Tigraine only ties Moiraine and Tigraine as in-laws. So Luc is only the brother of Moiraine's ex sister in-law. Quite messy family trees these people have!


The characters from the Light side who have links to Slayer so far are

ISAM
- Lan (his cousin. Isam's mother is blamed for the downfall of Malkier)
- Moiraine (through Lan + the Dark Prophecy episode, possibly both are linked to the Tower of Ghenjei and the Finns)
- Verin (Dark Prophecy, noted that the trollocs shouted ISAM!)
- Perrin (wolfdreams, wounded Isam with an arrow in TAR)
- Birgitte (with Perrin in TAR around the Tower of Ghenjei)
- Nynaeve (attacked by Isam in TAR, TSR. Noticed he looks like Lan a lot)
- Egwene (saw him in TAR. Takes him for Lan)

Remotely : Serafelle and Siuan (Dark Prophecy). Alanna was with Verin in the TR.

LUC
- Rand (nephew. Can enter TAR in the flesh like Slayer)
- Galad (his nephew, but he was an infant when Luc disappeared)
- Elayne, Nynaeve, Egwene (saw Luc spying on them in TAR, thought he looked like Rand's uncle)
- Faile (met Lord Luc in the TR, attracted his attention)
- Perrin (met Lord Luc, saw him wounded in the TR)
- Verin (met Lord Luc in the TR, She made him nervous)

There's also Noal Charin, currently with Mat, who is very likely Jain Charin Farstrider, hero of Malkier who brought Isam's father to the King's justice.

From his comments in WH about being Isam for the murder in Tear and appearing to the sisters, we can now assume that Slayer can be Luc or Isam both in TAR and the real world.

Personally, I can well see multiple encounters or showdowns with Slayer.

Let's see.... I can see 3 possible threads merging around Slayer :

- Moiraine's rescue, the Finns
- The TAR task force (Egwene + Perrin)
- The Malkier plot (Lan/Farstrider/Isam)
- Verin and Corianin Nedeal

Lan : He is a given. When he'll learn about Isam, he's going to become his archenemy. The whole "Fall of Malkier" subplot seems to have been included for a showdown between Lan and Isam. Isam has been known to lead trollocs' armies and Lan knows the Blight like his pocket. Many hints have been given that Lan could unite the Borderlands but doesn't want to hear about it. But what if the Blight starts to advance again, under the man linked to Malkier's destruction???

Beside his love for Nynaeve, Lan lacks a little something to involve himself into right now. A possible logical development would bring Isam to be ordered to destroy the rest of the borderlands from the Blight. I'm sure all the Borderlands' leaders are not in the South for no reason or without some Chosen knowing about it. IMO, Jordan is preparing something.

Lan may finally raise the banner of Malkier against Isam, uniting the Borderlands behind him. At least, Isam would be a good bait for bringing Lan to do that. Slayer might hide in the Tower of Ghenjei, but perhaps his "real world" home is the ruins of the Seven Towers among the shadowspawn. Possible pre-strike encounter : Lan and Farstrider who might know a couple of interesting facts about the fall of Malkier. OTOH, I'm still unconvinced that Farstrider is working for the Light. Not that he is evil IMO, but I highly suspect Compulsion by Graendal (the old man in her palace, her Shara pets) and Moridin also used him long ago for that EotW scheme. But a Lan vs. Isam showdown would be really interesting further down the road, not in book 10. The fruit is not ripped just yet.

Verin will be involved with Slayer eventually, that's a given. She is a fountain of knowledge - some of it quite esoterical and she is linked with the Dark Prophecy, the whole TAR plot, the alternate worlds and the ta'veren plot threads (especially with Perrin and Rand but likely to become interested in Mat too eventually). She is also linked to Moiraine and interestingly she is now in a position to be right in the middle of a potential Moiraine vs. Cadsuane new plot thread (seriously hinted at in New Spring).

With Rand, Verin, Lan and Nynaeve together, I can well imagine a little meeting with Isam along the road (Isam could flee by jumping to TAR when he sees Lan and Verin will reveal what she knows of the DP and Lord Luc in the TR). Now, just imagine if Slayer let slip something about Moiraine in that occasion... But Verin won't have the necessary knowledge to bring the plot much further. Imagine how interesting would be if Verin discovers who Birgitte really is and where she came from, though... (Verin meeting Birgitte has long been my pet option for revealing further elements of Verin's real connection to TAR).


Birgitte, Mat, Olver, Thom : This gang is more obviously linked to Moiraine. They miss Birgitte right now and are busy with a gholam, Tuon and Semirhage - and possibly they have a Graendal agent with them as well. But momentum might come quickly if the three Ta'veren are reunited around Elayne or Egwene and share their news, let's say in the last third of the book. In the cons category, people usually don't share news in WoT...

Cyndane : She had a costly showdown with Moiraine, she met Perrin in the wolfdream before, she will certainly add Nynaeve to her hate-list after the CK events, she was probably involved with Slayer before and she is strongly linked to TAR *and* to the Finns thread. Also, nobody around Rand knows who she is. She would make a very fitting partner for Slayer in a TAR aspect of Moiraine's rescue.

Perrin and the wolves : Egwene dreamed of him leading a wolf army and Slayer is pursuing a wolvicide in TAR. I think the Perrin + wolves army plot might happen in the wolfdream, not in the flesh. It might well be an attack against Slayer or even the Tower/Finns if the Finns plot evolves into something quite unexpected (which I think will be the case). Egwene will be included somehow, IMO. She is linked to Perrin's "wolfbrotherhood" since the beginning and IMO it's only a question of time before these two join their efforts and skills to do something important in TAR.

I think all the events leading to Moiraine's rescue might come together in book 10 on the periphery of the White Tower/Black Tower plots, but the rescue itself might well happen only in book 11. I expect Mat and Perrin to meet first before joining Rand.

But the real showdown with Slayer will probabky come later. That'd be a pity if Jordan doesn't use the fact that he is both an enemy to Perrin and Lan and that he can use TAR. So I would go with Lan moving against him in the real world while Perrin and Hopper close on him in TAR (and perhaps in the real world as well, with wolves too). But that would make a huge subplot, so somehow I'm not convinced something like that could happen before TG (unless of course it's part of TG itself).

I forgot Nynaeve. If Rand, Verin, Lan and co. meet Isam in the real world, Nynaeve is the one who could tell them he can go to TAR. She saw him as Isam there and noticed how he looked like Lan's brother. She would recognize him, I think.

Now I'm worried, Dom's touching a little bit too close to a theory I submitted on who would rescue Moiraine. Thank the Light he wasn't focusing on it, I wouldn't be surprised to see my own theory uncovered before it has a chance to show itself!

Not in terms of the evidence for it, we use quite different reasoning on the point, but it's nice to know that others suspect something similar to myself.

You make me very curious now Three in a Boat. But let's keep it for your theory - hope it gets posted soon!

When do we get to see your theory, Dom? Have you submitted it yet?


"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"

I hope my theory gets posted too, but soon? Nah, there were 70 pending theories ahead of mine when I submitted it (which was either yesterday or the day before, can't remember).

It's certainly not a full proof theory, but I hope it wil be posted as it should at leat spark some debate.

I hope too!

"When do we get to see your theory, Dom? Have you submitted it yet?"

No I haven't submit it yet, I'm still collecting quotes and references. I also have to condense and structure it a bit, and I'm really, really bad at that in English. I always end up with four long sentences to tell the same thing I would tell in one sentence in French. *sigh*.

what he was doing when the attack happened... he was going to see cadsuane.. the last time he had gone to see her he had the crown and stuff and tried to impress her, which didn't help a bit... he left the stuff there so that he could try to just go as humbly as he could bring himself to be, and maybe have a chance of getting some info out of her... although there are possibilities... we do know that moraine gave them all coins she could locate in book one... we also know that anyone who has healed someone grows an affinity for that person... not as clear as the bond, but good enough for nyneave to find perrin and egwene in the right hotel in baerlon...

CORRECT! Three in a boat this I know comes as a surprise from me. A homing device is valid theory. As TiaB mentioned earlier Moraine gave the boys coins so that if separated she would have the ability to find them. The second part that TiaB failed to add and the reason I agree with TiaB is as folows:

The following is a passage from The Great Hunt, pg. 58 hardcover. Moraine is speaking to Siuan Sanche about the boys.

" I cannot travel with him. He must be let off the leash for a time. there is no help for it. I have had all of their old clothes burned. There has been too much opportunity for some shred of what they were wearing to have fallen into the wrong hands. I will cleanse them before they leave; they will not even realize it is done. There will be no chance they can be tracked that way, and the only other threat of that kind is locked away here in the dungeon."

So you see the idea of a homing device used to track Rand is a valid one.

Your welcome! My services are provided to anyone on this site free of charge.

Columbo is on the case!

By the way I have found some of stuff posted here valuable.


'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'

As well as his wound there is another thing RaT carries around 24/7 - Alannas bond. And RaThor has been warned against Alanna b4 - maybe she's black/being used by the dark side.


Member of Wotmania Writers Guild

Someshtalina
(Help me sink this world into the shadow - of beautiful trees)

Blessed Be

I say some, because it has been proven before in the books after the PoD and by other users, that (A) The reason why the Asha'man could find Rand at Dumai's well, is because of the principles of Travelling... that being that you need not know where you are going but know where you are coming from very well and know what you are looking for on the other side of the gateway. This is how any one capable of channeling and knowing how to create a gateway can find Rand when they need to. & (B)As to what the Asha'man felt in the palace, by saying I'm telling you I felt nothing... that does still leave a lot for discussion. I personally believe that, that has to do with them sensing his grasping Saidan at the time of there attack.


Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate!!

for a wot book doesn't seem likely that there would be homing devices


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

Why couldn't it just be the unhealable wound that Ishmael gave him?

Interesting theory, but I doubt it. If anything, I think that the wounds that Rand has may be homing devices, the wound from the Dark One leading him to it, the wound from Shadar Logoth leading Fain to him.

Plus, you have to remember that Rand is ta'varen. I mean, weird things are supposed to happen around him.

Not a homing device fool, they could sense a male channeler at that distance.