This has been touched on before, but I believe my version of this theory (that EITHER this age is not special at all and is one age in infinite, OR that Rand will allow the DO to be released from his prison and break the Wheel) is the most convincing. So, read and decide...
What is Tarmon Gaidon, exactly? Or, more specifically, is there a Tarmon Gaidon for every rotation of the Wheel, or will it be the Battle to End All Battles? In the beginning of the first book Ishmael says, "...This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!... It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time." Does "the end of time" mean after Tarmon Gaidon, at which point Rand & Ishy's battles will be "done" or....
Or is this whole series of books just one episode in a never-ending cycle? Just when my mind grasps one answer, the other ruins it. Since it's obvious (?) that the books will end with Tarmon Gaidon, will this be the event at which point "time ends" and the cyclic turning of the wheel ends with it? One would think that it _has_ to be, otherwise we're just reading about one Age in one turning of the Wheel that has been repeated before and will occur again. There has to be something different about this specific Age in this specific turning RJ chose to write about, doesn't there? Otherwise there's nothing to look forward to; our heroes will win and the bore will somehow be completely sealed by Rand, only to have meddling Aes Sedai in the second age one revolution of the Wheel later to mess up, counterstroke again, etc. Why keep reading?
Yet seems that there is a Tarmon Gaidon at the end of every third Age in a turning of the Wheel. There's an Age of Legends in each rotation of the Wheel (RJ quote: What is/was the Age of Legends _will_ repeat eventually, but not until the Wheel turns considerably further) in which the Dragon (LTT in this turning of the Wheel) seals the prison that was punctured (thanks Lanfear), a third Age in which the Dragon Reborn (a guy named Rand this time around) is reincarnated and then fights in Tarmon Gaidon, and a fourth Age after that... (where the prophesies/histories of the Karath. Cycle come from) until you get to our time now (RJ quote: Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future _and_ in our past, depending on which way you look) until you eventually get back to the AOL, etc. ad infinum.
It also seems to me that, since there seems to be a Tarmon Gaidon at the end of every third Age (how else would people be able to write the K. Cycle about it in the fourth Age for Rand to read later?) something unique and different must occur at this one if we are to get more out of all of these books than a glimpse of a random third Age in an infinite turning of this Wheel. As Ishmael says, time must "end" if we are to hope for anything more than a fleeting glimpse of the ever-turning Wheel. How is this to happen?
Let's ask RJ ourselves:
"Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window."
RJ also seems to admire civilizations that think of time in a linear fashion: (from CNN http://asia.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html "Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible."
I see it one of two ways: either we are just reading something that will happen over and over and over again for forever after our books end, or Rand will in fact allow the Dark One to be freed from his prison, breaking the wheel entirely and ending the whole freakin thing for better or worse. He's obviously willing to risk the whole planet on an educated hunch (Choedan Kal anyone?). It's either that, or pass off the Dragon label to the next poor sap, only to have the whole thing repeat infinitely.
Perhaps, Fel may have meant just this when he suggested to Rand to "clear the rubble before you can rebuild." Certainly reason enough for him to be assassinated. I'd like to think that Rand isn't content with somehow shoving the Dark One back into the bottle for the rest of history to have to deal with...
PS Except for the CNN one, The RJ quotes come from Thus Spoke The Creator http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator.htm
Lauriana Sedai says: I’m no Ishy, and philosophy isn't really my bag. Basically, if Fel was right and the whole process of patching and re-opening the Dark One's prison is not only going to repeat infinitely, but must, according to the creator's plan, then we are left with a problem. Namely, the fact that none of our precious characters are really so special and unique as we'd like them to be. Not to get too psychological here, but this just sounds like the basic human condition: our personal achievements and individual lives seem vastly more important to us than they will to the zillions of other life-forms that co-exist with us and those that will come after us. Kind of bleak and depressing, but hey- that's life.
Comments
Well, The Wheel's either gonna break, or not. Myself, I lean towards it being broken, yet accompanied by a plot twist that puts a final end to the DO. But we all know it's just wishful thinking. Now I'm going to lay awake all night mulling this over...
I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.
lots of people would love to see the wheel broken, because then it would fit more within the realm of possibility, but it's fantasy, and I think the the time and place of this story is just another cycle...
"Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?"
"I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!"
I'd like to know whether there were 3 ta'veren together as Rand, Mat, and Perrin are in the other ages just before Tarmon Gai'don. I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere else. And with exceptionally strong Nynaeve and Egwene being loyal childhood friends as well, these differences might truly make Rand's fight with the DO the Last Battle. I certainly hope so, the whole story seems futile and pointless. Maybe I should stop reading now to save myselves heartache at the end. Naah.
Not to jump off the subject here or anything but...why did I read the same thing twice on this theory? Word for word...a big fat copy and paste. Maybe he was trying to illustrate that time is circular or something. I dont know. My own opinion is kinda like this...
Why do we assume that our world fits into the WOT as the first age? Is it because the AOL is referred to as the second age and that is so obviously just one tiny step above ours? I am not attempting an essay on human nature here however.
Close to the beginning of every book Jordan writes "In one age, called the Third Age by some..." This is the only point in ANY of the books that the age we are reading about is referred to as the Third Age in the narrative perspective.....and it is only called that by some.
At the beginning of each book we are thrown a loop, be it directly or otherwise, by Jordan. The second paragraph of every book we assume "This is how it is, let's get to the juicy stuff". Yet we overlook an OPINION in the NARRATIVE. Three words...[called][by some]. What can this mean?
Logically speaking, this is not the Third Age. More likely it is the Fifth or Sixth. Three things in the series as well as the white book point directly to this.
1) The skeleton on display whithin the Panarch's palace in Tanchico. The description of it (TSR, Egwene's POV, pgs 144 and 146) sounds nothing like a dragon as some have claimed. Rather it sounds like some tusked creature, a mammoth given the "great age" description of it. If it is indeed a mammoth then it lends credence to our age being that before the AOL. It also suggests that the fossils of earlier creatures would be either too far buried or demineralized to be found in this time.
2) The somewhat repeated statements in both the series and the white book that the population is declining in both numbers and channeling ability. As far as the latter is concerned, yes it is declining. The fewer the people = the fewer the people who make up the percentage of channelers.
3) The Land of Madmen. Described by the Sea Folk on page 150 of the white book. To summarize, it is populated by primitive people who exist in a tribal social structure.
Point one suggests that there were creatures that are now extinct at some time or another. Possibly even dinosaurs.
Points two and three obviously point to mankind itself being in a state of decline. Point three so casually shown as to surely suggest this.
To summarize we are witnessing the decline of mankind. Tarmon'Gaidon is indeed the last battle. It is the last battle faught against the DO before mankind itself fades to myth. The logical order of ages could be something like this...
1. Age of dinosaurs. Big lizards who weren't too bright. Most likely ending in a cosmic event.
2. Post dinos. Mostly mammals now. Mankind makes his appearance towards the end during the most recent "Ice Age".
3. Genesis. Mankind is spreading. Civilization begins. However that is washed away when all that aforementioned ice melts. Thank you Noah for your foresight.
4. Our time. We dream of ways to do things great with minimal work. Hence our technology and rudimentary belief in magic.
5.AOL. Begins with the discovery of magic(channeling). Great things done here. We know how this one ends.
6. Randland. Mankind is slowly fading away. Most likely it will end with the DO being sealed away and, as a consequece of that, the OP as well.
7. Post-Randland. Mankind struggles to maintain what it has. However, due to the lack of technology and channeling, it is destroyed by a cosmic event or a planetwide rebellion by nature.
To refute some potential arguments:
1. There have indeed been numerous "Ice Ages" in the past as displayed by modern geological studies.
2. I am Christian, but the birth of Christ cannot truly be considered an age changing event. It occured during the height of the Roman empire and it's main effect was to be one of the most recognized religions of today- not the sole religion.
3. Tarmon'Gaidon may be called "the Last Battle" by the people of Randland. That doesn't mean it is the LAST battle. I'm sure the people of that time like the idea of a LAST battle vs. the idea of a NEXT battle.
4. Time is circular- not linear. When on this planet the earth sure seems pretty linear, when it is in fact quite circular (spherical).
RJ, Marcon Interview (on Articles of WoTmania)
Question (Asked by someone in the audience)
"At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?"
Answer
"No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."
Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.
W.A.S.T.E.
But isn't the K. Cycle a book of prophesy?
I don't remember seeing that it was a book from the Fourth Age, and I do remember hearing that items from the AoL are rare to come by, so a book that originated six Ages ago probably would not survive.
Just a comment on "(how else would people be able to write the K. Cycle about it in the fourth Age for Rand to read later?)"
my two cents...
________________
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
I believe Jordan will keep with the cyclical nature of the universe he has created and will end things as he began many chapters. There are neither beginings nor endings in the Wheel of Time but it was an ending.
>"No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes >this Age any different from any other turnings of the >Wheel. The Wheel is endless."
>I believe Jordan will keep with the cyclical nature of the >universe he has created and will end things as he began >many chapters. There are neither beginings nor endings in >the Wheel of Time but it was an ending.
I'll have to agree with this, for certain. Although Rand is rebellious enough to break the wheel if he could (which is doubtful since the wheel doesn't seem to e a tangible thing), since he refers to not wanting to be a puppet or having his destiny chosen for him, I don't think it can happen. Tarmon Gaidan will probably be an ending to the thousands of fights that Rand in countless forms has fought, since our Forsaken friend has claimed this to be the "last time" they do battle. Even so, there is no ending to the turning of the wheel, and so, it can only be AN ending.
B r 
k e n C u e n d i l l a r
but with this one, you've at least made me accept that Linear time could be the outcome of TG. If that's the case, I don't think that Rand would let the DO escape, but that, either Rand or more likely Fain kills the DO in some fashion. I say Fain, because I could see him trying to kill Rand, but accidentally touching the DO with evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the DO reacting with the evil of SL killing each other off, like the way Rand cleansed the Taint by channeling it through the evil of SL. If the DO is to be destroyed IMO, it's either by Rand doing something that's never done before or by an Evil that's nearly as great as that of the DO, which could be that of Shadar Logoth.
I still hate any Linear Time theories, but maybe this is really the last "The Last Age" and the DO will either be destroyed or that IT will remake the world in its image.
Simon
Founding member of the ASI
TP ADMIN
Simon
and it never really is the LAST Battle. The most obvious evidence for this is Nicola's Foretelling in LoC, CH 14 Dreams and Nightmares.
Also the Karaethon Cycle comes from an Aes Sedai's Foretelling in the AoL, evidence of this is in tSR, CH 26 The Dedicated.
Jim
Sir Jim
Lord of Minutia™
King of WoT MB Posts™
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Ok, you have a lot of good points and all, but I have to go with an eventual repetition.
I don't know why people think the series would be a waste of time if it is just one turning of the wheel. How does the fact that problems will one day arise again belittle or demean the importance of the "Last Battle" that would end Rand's age. Saving something from destruction doesn't mean it will always be safe later on, just that it isn't destroyed for good.
Realistic stories don't have to include a stark finality that is only ever found in Holywood. Good stories acknowledge that there are things that are outside the scope of that story to tell, other problems that are other peoples to fix. Not everything is like a TV sitcom where it all raps up in 30 minutes.
First, my theory is just that it will end one of these two ways. I tend to think that it will end as a cycle (possibly with Ishmael taunting the Dragon of the NEXT second age like the beginning of TEOTW, I think that would be a cool bookend), however much I'd like it to end with Rand allowing the DO to be freed.
Jack_And_Coke: I'm not sure what word for word repetition you mean. Sorry if anything was confusing, it's a complex subject to follow. I don't think it really matters what number people want to ascribe to this age, it's all the same isn't it (one of seven)? May as well call it Third since most do...
Green Gaidin: I took that quote to mean that there's nothing _inherently_ special about this age. I think that's what RJ meant. Because he and his characters have also clearly said that the Wheel isn't guarenteed an infinite existence. If the DO breaks out, it's over with, as he's said himself. To take your quote literally, he's assured us that the DO will never break out because we would know that it will last forever, which he isn't saying. So I think you have to understand he's saying this age is like any other Third Age, but Rand may not necessarily be like any other Dragon, _if_ he lets the DO out, which remains to be seen.
Moxyll: I was of course wrong in saying that the Karethean Cycle is from the 4th Age. I meant to refer to the various 4th Age Histories in the header prophesies/histories of TEOTW and LoC, and afterward prophesies/histories of DR, TSR and TFoH...
Locksmith: Ishmael says there is an "end of time" and RJ says that freeing the DO will do the same. The name "Creator" implies there indeed was a beginning, and if we knew there wouldn't be an end, we'd also know that the DO would never be freed. So there is the possibility of time "ending," and most in the books assume that this would be a very bad thing (the DO breaking free). One has to wonder if Fel and LTT are encouraging just that (as I can't imagine what else breaking the seals would do...).
Jim: I'm glad you brought up Nicola's fortelling, I forgot to mention it. I think it is definitely compatible with an endgame scenario. "The great battle done, but the world not done with battle." Could mean, the DO is gone, but humanity now turns it's gaze on each other, such as... "The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." The land is divided by Seanchan who apparently occupy half of Randland by that point. Think it'll be a big "kumbaya?" As many characters have demonstrated, humanity is capable of war without Trollocs and Forsaken. Also, how could the "future teeter on the edge of a blade" as Nicola says if the DO is sealed away again? The future would be very clearly established (the whole cycle thing) right?
Heimy: Yes, good stories shouldn't end with nothing left to imagine, neatly wrapped in a bow. But isn't that just what happens when everything continues on like clockwork in a loop? What's left to imagine? Unless Rand does something drastic, WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN! We're just reading to see how he gets there. I don't see how the actual breaking of the Wheel doesn't open up a ton of worms for us to ponder once the series ends...
I personally believe that Rand will complete this turn of the wheel and time will continue on in its circular fashion.
I would LOVE to see a series epilogue at the very end of the last book in which first we see Ishmael or another surviving Forsaken talking to a mad Rand, and second we see, thousands of years into the future, a young boy (or girl) travelling with his father to the market in which a strange black-cloaked figure is nearby, suddenly there and suddenly gone . . .
That would be very cool!
Also, the taint the DO placed on the male half of the One Power seems like a one-time thing when its described in the white index book. Perhaps this time the DO will inflict some equally damning taint on another aspect of Aes Sedai life. Then we'd have another Breaking and another mad or injured LTT (Rand).
Of course, many would like to see the pattern broken, the Wheel turned into a Line, and Rand continues on with his happy life. I don't see that happening.
Bottom line, I will accept either ending to the series with open arms, but I'd like to see our Wheel go 'round one more time.
After the WoT seriers is finished, we need to read it again from Loial's POV. I wish we could see some of what he's been working on all this time.
-Braidtugger
josh24601 the phrase about beginnings and endings is a paraphrase from the 1st chapter (not the prologue but the first chapter) of every book.
was that when the theory was first posted, the entire theory was there twice. The theory, and then the theory cut and pasted again, the the admin's comments. But now.. it's NOT!
Are Jack_and_Coke and I
BOTH imagining things
, or did an admin go back and change it?
Anyway, I don't think the Dark One will get free, the Wheel will continue.
"Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad"
"I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon"
It must be the taint.
Uh, if its just one age out of many and it happens again and again and this one is no diffrent it will leave a sour flavor in some peoples mouths... but then alot of Anime has that sort of a feeling to it also.
PersonallY I think this is the last.
I think RJ gives us hints at the end of the books to show us it's going to be cyclic. At the end of books 3, 4, & 5, during the prologue, he put songs from the 4th Age. I've assumed this to mean that someone is writing this story during the 4th Age as a history of what happened.
maybe?
we are reading Loial's book?
hmm.....
It is easier to stab someone in the back
then to look them in the eye.
Society is built upon this principle
and is universal amongst those who rule.
RJ will never finish this series until they "nail his coffin shut."
Rand will defeat the Dark One at TG and everyone will celebrate. Then the epilogue will begin with, "History becomes legend and legend fades to myth ..."
Three years later, another book will come out that is similar to EotW, following another young shepherd.
RJ will keep writing and writing and writing and writing until his books become legend. The legend will fade to myth and then forgotten by the time the age that gave them birth comes back.
Myrddin
Can't say as that I've thought of that before but I like your line of thought
After all, I'm sure Mr. Jordan could use the revenue since I don't think this turning of his Wheel has sold well enough....errrr?
Do NOT highlight this space...P Floyd...or you'll be in trouble!
............'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.' - Sam Roberts
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but what about Balefire? If Rand has been running around whacking the Foresaken with Balefire, then what happens during the next turn? I thought that the theory was Balefire would burn a thread out of the tapestry of life or whatever its called. If thats the case then the DO isn't gonna have his same set of goonies next time the wheel spins around.
Balefire is one thing that has always confused me. RJ refers to times when "whole cities" were burned out of time. So then time isn't exactly cyclic is it?
For some reason through all of this, I believe that Rand is gonna end up sealing away the dark one in a bright new shiny prison without holes for the AS to bore into later and thus time will repeat. But how?
Just a thought on the thoughts above.
If a Forsaken is Balefired then he/she is gone, and if its a powerful enough stream then the DO can't ressurrect them in another body.
But there are plenty of Darkfriends who would love to be given the chance to Nae'Blis, so I am certain that for the next cycle a new Forsaken could be chosen to replace those lost and they would be just as evil. Possibly Taim could elevate himself that high?
Also Whole cities being balefired is pretty much ripping them out of the pattern and for them then time is not cyclical, but on a world wide view, time continues, and one city here or there doesn't stop the wheel turning. Hence the Breaking whilst Geographies changed the wheel still turns.
Just some thoughts.
The_Hutt Thinking thoughts
The_Hutt "Those are brave men lets go kill them" Tyrion Lannister
I have several comments regarding the ending of the series. Firstly, in reference to the quotes from Jordan indicating that this age is not special, the cycle will continue, etc., what else could he say? Even if the Last Battle ends the cycle and makes time linear, he could not very well tell us that without giving away the entire ending. At this point in the series everything we know leaves the possibility that the cycle will simply continue. I think Jordan works from that assumption without adding details from his own knowledge of how the series ends.
Secondly, regarding the above assertion, "Realistic stories don't have to include a stark finality that is only ever found in Holywood." Perhaps not, but there is something in the human psyche that, in most cases, desires finality at the end of a tale, or at least a happy resolution. The story may go on, but not in such a way that invalidates the events of the preceding narrative altogether. I do not believe Jordan would abandon this principle. I agree with the comment that it would be rather anti-climactic to find out that the entire series recounts only the story of one Age from one amongst an infinite number of cycles. Jordan tells the tale of these specific people in this specific Age because they are particularly special.
Finality, or happy ending, is certainly not only to be found in Hollywood. Most fairy tales and legends, which represent the truths discovered by our ancestors, also cling to the decisive ending, with good victorious over evil in a definite and unalterable way.
Besides, what make a better (more enjoyable, profitable, etc.) story: hero wins but goes mad and allows cycle of threat/struggle/evil to continue OR hero wins against all odds and does what no one believed possible?
*ponders*