The guide tells of three lost talents with intriguing and mysterious names: Spinning Earthfire, Milking Tears, and Aligning the Matrix. It is common knowledge that “Aligning the Matrix” involves creating ter’angreals. And most of us are still mystified by the talent of “Milking tears”. However, during my reread of PoD, I think I may have discovered the true meaning of “Spinning Earthfire.”
Apparently the talent of “Spinning Earthfire” has not yet been completely lost. The Seanchan damane still apparently know of its use.
In PoD, “Threads,” we see the Chulein say, “I’ll use my share (of money from capturing female channelers) to buy a damane and hire a sul’dam. A damane trained to make Sky Lights. When I leave the sky, I’ll be as rich as one of the Blood.”
Directly after this, she thinks, “They had something called ‘fireworks’ here- she had seen some fellows vainly trying to interest the Blood in Tanchico- but who would watch such a pitiful thing compared to the Sky Lights? Those fellows had been bundled out and dumped in the road outside the city.”
Now, some of you might be thinking that this all fine and well. We see the fire, but where is the earth?
Well, the answer is as simple as Chemistry 101. The colors produced by fireworks are heavily dependent on the various earth metal powders placed inside the firework. Here is a quote from the fireworks listing in the New World encyclopedia:
“Manufacturers add small amounts of special chemicals to the gunpowder to create colors. They add sodium compounds to produce yellow, strontium compounds for red, and copper and barium compounds for blue and green. Charcoal is another substance that can be added. It gives the rocket a sparkling, flaming tail.”
So we see that in order for fireworks to be as dazzling as they are, both earth metals and fire are needed. Hence, we get the name “Earthfire.” The Spinning part comes from the actual design and pattern of the weaves by the channeler. Voila: “Spinning Earthfire.”
In conclusion, I would like to add one more note. From the Guide, we know that the AoL was a very peaceful time. Violence was virtually unknown. We also know that most of the lost talents are remnants of the AoL, lost in the Breaking. Therefore, it makes sense that most of the lost talents are not talents of war and destruction, but rather talents of healing and of civilization. From this perspective, it makes sense that “Spinning Earthfire” is about fireworks, and not about some lost talent of war.
Burr says: If the Seanchan still use the weave, why don't they still use the name? We could say that they lost the weave and then rediscovered it, but why would Jordan write the story that way when he could have otherwise produced a gasp of surprise when the Seanchan casually mentioned the lost weave?
Comments
If we look at the weaves as nonviolent weaves from a peaceful AoL, then maybe "Milking Tears" refers to a form of desalination using the OP, thus providing drinkable water from salt water for the AoL's large population.
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From the way RJ writes, I would not be surprised by this. I like this theory. It's kinda like a clue right in front of your nose that you miss. It would be like RJ to put it that way. Mentioning "Spinning Earthfire" by name would be too easy. I wouldn't be surprised if they did say it by name, but it wouldn't be like RJ to do that. I love the way this theory was put. Good work!
By any chance, could milking tears refer to farming? Maybe a way to get cows to be overproductive, or a way of creating tears (a drink maybe?)
Actually, I though of something else as I write this. Salt is very important to preserve meat, and there is salt in tears. Maybe this spell allows a cow to produce milk and salt water?
Umm, isn't that the reverse of what Egwene did to those locks in TDR? In other words, making metal stronger, kinda like power-wrought blades and such?
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Why would anyone worry about something so unimportant?
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Um, well. All Asha'man is thaught "Spinning Earthfire" as part of their training.
Remember Taim ordering his Asha'man to create SPINNING rings of EARTH and FIRE, at a certain point (hint: wells).
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Didn't I read somewhere that although the Aol was a peaceful time, once the shadow war began, they learned all about war very quickly and were very good at it, therefore Shai'tans theory about spinning rings of earth & fire sounds more reasonable to me
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That's the commonly accepted theory about Spinning Earthfire. However, in case you've forgotten that Taimandred was the commonly accepted theory about Demandred's whereabouts - and is no longer- it's important to note that no one ever actually calls the Asha'man's weave the name "Spinning Earthfire."
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I'm not sure if I buy this or not, but it is some nicely thought-out deduction.
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1. No one said that these talents have to be of that much significgance. 1 or 2 of them might be very important, but they could just be little mysteries that RJ threw in the series and that he is never going to really develop. Actually, the Sky Lights may have been of great importance in the AoL. Obviously, the AoL was a very cultural time, and different forms of arts may have been very important.
2. As for the AoL being a peaceful time and then turning into the war very quickly. It is possible that one of these talents could be a talent of war- afterall the names are in the common tongue, not the old one (which is why Moghedien didn't really recognize the names when Elayne asked her).
However, the duration of the AoL was much longer than the War and the breaking itself, and it was more peaceful. Therefore , the cultures would have had more time to devote to developing and refining the talents. But you are right, a certain talent for killing could have creeped out during the War of the Shadow. Though, if you look at all the talents so far, none are really about death: seeing ta'vern, healing, delving, cloud dancing, aliging the matrix, foretelling, dreaming, etc.
3. As for the Ashaman spinning weaves of Earth and Fire. Why would something that Taim teaches his new recruits be a Talent? Perhaps, a more likely possibility would be a women doing the same thing to kill someone- because women are not naturally strong in Earth & Fire. However, the Sky Lights makes just as much sense.
4. It is also possible that a few talents developed during the breaking. For example, let's look at the talent of delving. Why is delving even a talent? Delving is probably 2nd nature to most male channelers. However, delving is especially difficult to female channelers. Therefore, the talent of female delving may have developed during the breaking, when the females could no longer rely on male channelers. Something similar could have happened with 'Spinning Earthfire.'
However, like I said, the 'Spinning Earthfire' theroy I presented earlier makes just as much sense. It is all just speculation. However, my theory does have a certain puzzle in it that RJ, who studied physics, might be akin to using.
As someone said above, why would RJ give us all these mysterious names and then just feed us the answers. That is definitely not RJ's style.
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I think the definition of "Talent" is somewhat blurred, and I think it's been that way since before the breaking.
I recall a Moghedien point of view (just before she balefire's Nynaeve's boat), where she thinks to herself that her life would have been easier had her Talent for compulsion been stronger. She calls it a Talent, but I'm of the opinion that things like Compulsion & Healing are nothing more than immensely complicated weaves, of which some channelers are more adept at than others.
Then there are the Talents that aren't really associated with the One Power - seeing ta'veren, Foretelling, Dreaming, etc. Maybe Perrin's wolf thing falls in that category as well . . . .
I think that Aes Sedai of both the 2nd & 3rd age have used the term "Talent" to describe the the more difficult/uncommon uses for the One Power, and in the process incorrectly associated the true Talents with the One Power. Dreaming is a perfect example.
I was always under the impression that milking tears was something like what Semirhage does. i.e. torture
that aligning the matrix is making metals stronger
and that spinning Earthfire is what the Ashaman did at Dumai's Wells... I mean... it only stands to reason
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hahahahahahaha milk and salt water! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah boy your funny hahahahahahahahahah stop hahahahahahahah please hahahahahahahah.
Theory was interesting but some of the comments were so laughable I was crying salt water tears... hahahahahahahahah not again! hahahahahahah ahahahahahah hahhahaha.
Okay I'm back, but please not so much comedy. The salt water tears are staining my desk and burning my eyes. hahahahahahah hahhaha ahahhah ahhahahha........
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Lord of Chaos
Mass market paperback
Page 1004
Paragraph 3
"Asha'man," Taim's voice rang out, "
ROLLING ring of Earth and Fire!"
Spinning Earthfire is more likely a way of terraforming the landscape to suit your needs or to make buildings. Melting the bedrock and forming it into something else in a way akin to vulcanism.
Something like that in the hands of insane male channelers that are out of control would raise mountains and move seas.
As for the rest, I have no idea.
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...maybe Spinning Earthfire is how the Stone of Tear was made.
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I doubt that the aessedai in the aol used the power to create fireworks and even if they did i doubt they would give a name to this ability. I agree with the other post that the ability is mostly a male ability (that is why moghedien never heard of it) and possibly deal with construction or something similiar
I think you need to define 'talent.'
One is the usual modern day version, as in: Joe is a talented musician. I think this applies to the channelers in WOT, the ability to be a good healer is a talent, but anyone can learn the rudimentaries of healing.
On the other hand there are 'Talents', in this I've capitalized it to show the difference. A Talent is something that is special to the individual and cannot be learned in any way. For example, Foretelling, cannot be learned/taught you have it or you don't. As with the musician example above anyone can strum a guitar it takes no talent, but to foretell the furture is a Talent that is only born into some people, you can't be a bad foreteller, but you can be a bad musician.
In TBWB, it talks about the lost talents, and it talks in depth about the Seanchan. I don't think RJ can come back and say Spinning Earthfire was rediscovered and called Sky lights. Another point against this is that Sky Lights seem to be something most damane can do. They always celebrate victories by having sky lights, and whats-her-face wants to buy a damane so she can have sky light shows. That just seems like they are too common to be called a talent.
I don't believe it is what the Asha'man did at Dumai's Wells, either. And for the same reasons.
Spinning Earthfire is what the weave for the gateway transformed into in TPoD when Elayne tried to unravel the flows to keeps the Seanchan from learning how to travel. Coming up sometime soon, she will realize what she did and learn to recreate it, thereby re-learning the lost talent. There is absolutely no evidence for this, so in cannot be refuted!
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Allining the Matrix is clearly referred to by Moghedian as a way of making metals stronger. Perhaps by binding the atoms or something. As for Spinning Earthfire I agree with the idea of it being used to terraform the landscape as although it is logiacl the Seanchean would have lost the true name for it during the breaking.
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another fork in this argument
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Ok... So, Spinning Earthfire. Think about this name for a minute. Would you want someone building your house (castle, stone of tear, ect) with something called SPINNING EARTHFIRE? hell no. IMO, it definatly sounds like a weapon, offensive, whatever. Also: Of course it's been lost, only women are keeping track of this stuff (AS), and they're WEAK in Fire and Earth! Gee... I wonder if spinning EARTHFIRE has anything to do with EARTH or FIRE. The two elements that chicks suck at. I'm pretty sure that Taim and his boys have got that one under raps. Also: The new Tar Valon Tower is going to be crafted with the one power, Elaida says... (COS, page 3) and if they don't have Spinning Earthfire, well, nuff said.
As fer talents...
Maybe different weaves are kinda lumped into different catagories... If you check out the WOTRPG (hardly a reliable source, I know), they have all the weaves divided into different catagories, which people can have talents in. To have a talent in travelling would be skimming, portals, maybe those wacky portal stone thingies, the ways, who knows. To have a talent in throwing firey death, you'd probibly be pretty good at anything that could be considerend firey death (fireballs, maybe lightning bolts, Balefire etc etc etc).
Talents are just like little specialties that affect a group of different weaves, maybe. I dunno, I though that was pretty obvious, and assumed... or maybe I'm totally wrong, who knows.
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i like the theory, but i think the theories raised in counterpoint merit much more credit. spinning earthfire as a weapon or terraforming the earth seems much more realistic than simple fireworks/sky lights. of course, RJ always leads us in the wrong direction, so who knows.
some good points: if traveling is considered a lost talent, yet can be taught/learned, then why can't foretelling or making ter'angreal be taught/learned as well?
Has anyone considered the possibility that Spinning Earthfire could have had a peaceful beginning (putting on skylight shows, landscaping your yard, whatever) and been corrupted into a weapon after the war began?
Just a thought.
I don't really have an opinion either way on this one.
Anaelle
Sky Lights are better than fireworks according to the above mentioned quote by the Seanchan.
This is from CoS pg 649.
"Low across the roofs of taverns and shops and spired palaces he directed flows of Air and Water, Fire and Earth and Spirit, turning as he did so. He did not try to weave the flows, simply swept them out over the city and a good mile out over the marsh. From five other towers came flows sweeping low, and where they touched one another uncontrolled, light flashed and sparks flared and clouds of colored steam burst, a display any Illuminator might have envied"(can you say... runonandonandonandonandon sentence?)
That, I believe, is skylights. Undirected weaves coming into contact with other undirected weaves. No obvious use in combat, so probably not all damane would know the making of it, but pretty enough that some would have to learn to entertain the blood and such.
As for Spinning Earthfire, well, what could Earthfire be? Maybe Fire from the Earth? Or Lava in other words. So maybe Spinning Earthfire is the ability to find the lava( requiring strong Earth skills which would explaing why it is gone) and air (to spin it). Earth, strong in men, Air, strong in women. Not a very common combination which could explain why it was called a Talent.
They probably don't know the name because it was lost in the Breaking.
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i know this is probably way off but oh well. what about in FoH when rand made the tops of the hills erupt in fire, taking off the top parts of the hills? hey the hills are the EARTH and he made them explode in FIRE.
The ideas that spinning Earthfire might be what the Asha'men are being taught, but it all seems too easy to me. RJ would probably say that it was right there in front of our faces, and that we just werent looking at the clues. But that doesn't usually mean we just have to connect the words does it? No, not usually. I doubt that this Talent is going to come up again or be very relevent, but good ideas, i like them.
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Actually, Healing might be a Talent. It is very common among Aes Sedai, and like other talents, comme in different strengths. However, the question has been raised of why some talents appear in some people, while that is not the case for Healing. Well, it is the case.
Aiel Wise Ones do not have the Talent for Healing ( Ironic, seen how they descended from practitioners of the Way of the Leaf, you'd think it was one weave they would surely learn. )
I've never seen Seachan Damane Heal either. And Seanchan Sul'dam probably never ask it of Westlander Damane, because they don't expect it to exist.
So, it would be reasonable to assume that the Seanchan Sky Lights are indeed a Talent, maybe even Spinning Earthfire, even though noone else does it.
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