When Rand is trying to lay waste to Rahvin, he is balefirin’ as if he were a shocklance. Balefire pierces through walls, but unlike the boat, they remain intact. Rahvin is doing the same, but the walls are not destroyed.
I know, they’re in the World of Dreams, and manipulation of their surroundings is possible, but that should not daunt this theory. A strong dreamwalker could make imaginary walls real, replacing the missing walls, but neither Rand nor Rahvin was versed in the ways of this realm, so it would be unlikely for them to do so. The walls would have had to stay intact on their own, without the aid of The Dream World.
Their intent would be to keep the walls intact as a source of protection, cover, and to hide behind, so their intents acted on the balefire, which is subject to their minds, and the walls were left unscathed save for the areas where balefire touched them.
When a Black Sister uses the balefire rod against Nyneave, the blaefire released by the ter’angrael passes through the walls and destroys them. How is it that Rand’s balefire pierced through walls, while the Black Sister’s balefire, in a sense, destroyed the wall.
Chew on that for a second while I feed you more.
When Rand balefires Darkhounds, the balefire does not continue through the Darkhounds. When Moghedien balefires the ship that Nyneave is on, the balefire kills (passes through) two of the band and destroys the ship.
What was the intent of Rand’s balefire? To kill only the Darkhounds.
What was the intent of Moghedien’s balefire? Not to kill the Band, as they do not matter to her, but to destroy the ship, or kill Nyneave, or whatever, but definitely not to kill Band members.
The balefire did its job in accordance with the intent.
When Rahvin is killed, Rand hopes to change the pattern so that Aviendha can live once more. Neither he nor LTT would be well practiced in the use of balefire, and so would not know how strong a weave would be needed. The intent was to revert to the time before her death, and so, the intent acting upon the balefire, the net result was pleasing to the channeler, coinciding with the intent.
So far as we know, everyone has their own style of weaving, but never two styles of weaving the same thing. Weaves can be stronger or weaker, or cut off, but no person knows two different styles of weaving balefire. Balefire is hot, liquid fire. It annihilates. We don’t know much about what balefire is, but it would have a lot of kinetic energy, and would travel faster because of this, if it were physical. If it were based on waves, then the massive heat would mean that the wave would move very quickly. I can rant on and on about physics, but the point is it moves quickly, so a weave of balefire will not be stopped by will.
How then can balefire kill multiple people in one blow, while in another, one target is destroyed? To recap, the weave cannot be altered in mid-swing. The possibility of one person knowing multiple weaves for balefire is too slim to count. What is evident in all these examples above? The intent was carried out and was evident in the end result of the balefire. Balefire is more than a weave, more than Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Spirit. It is a reflection of one’s desires, and acts in accordance with those desires. It is not so much a weave as it is an extension of one’s self, a way for the mind to act beyond its limited control of the world.
Burr says: Why should Rand have to use exactly the necessary strength of balefire to fulfill his intent of saving Aviendha, Mat, and company? All we know is that he used enough balefire, not that he used just enough. The same goes for Moghedian when she was destroying Nynaeve's ship. All that scene shows us is that she channeled enough to destroy the two men and the boat, not that she channeled just enough to destroy the two men and the boat. Besides, if killing the two men was not part of her intent, then why were they killed, if your theory is true?
Comments
Living things are destroyed in a different way then say a rock, the Balefire somehow effects the thread of that person removing it thus the whole person vanishes and there isn't just a whole like in say a rock.
When rand Fights Rahvin there Bars of balefire leave wholes in the walls because they only ddestroy the stone they touch, since the stones are not threads in the patten the whole stone walls are not destroyed.
The black Sister's Spray of Bale Fire is out of control, she doesn't know how to channel a bar of bale fire say 1 inch round and 5 long, thus excess balefire is used and it destroys so much of the walls that it crumbles under it's own weight.
Moghedien's plan was to destroy the cabin and anyone in , but twist of fate has it it Mordin pets her soul this makes her jump and the balefire misses the cabin and hits the crew men.
BakeFire has nothing to do with will or intent or anything it's just a weave,that can destroy the threads of the pattern and anything else we can think of.
It has nothing to do with intent, other than indending how much Balefire you want to produce.
Also, Rand did not use Balefire to bring back Avienda (sorry probably spelt wrong) he did it because he was: 1. Mad as hell and wanted revenge for Avienda's and Mat's death, 2. If you remember, he was loosing, and wanted to strike back with everything he had, as he would not get a second chance.
BUrr:
I dont't think that Rand used 'the necessary strength'. I think that the intent of balefire is evident in the outcome and that if you were to use a stronger or weaker weave, it would not matter. It would just be a psychological thing. The weaver just believes that the strength matters, while really it is the intent that matters.
THe intent of Moghdien was to kill the ship. That the two men were killed was not part of the intent but of the inevitable effects of balefire. SHe intended to launch a weave, and to complete that weave, it just happened to have to go through them.
Daymon:
I was comparing the destruction of the ship to the destruction of the walls, not the walls to people. Yes, a person should be utterly destroyed by balefire, but why would one inanimate object suffer more than the next?
I forgot that the ter'angreal was hard to control.
That Morridin was involved doesn't change anything as the balefire would move to fast for any human reactions to make a difference.
Also, thanks for posting. Maybe I'll release an updated version of this theory at a later time. Hopefully by then I'll work all the kinks out. Thanks!
Wotmania Writers' Guild
Umm...no, intent doesn't really matter any more than it would on any other weave. Balefire is just a weave of the OP that destroys anything in its path. Though the unique properties are interesting, I don't think it means that intent is really used. Also if you read the encyclopedia on this website (yeah, thats right, click teh drop down menu and then click encyclopedia, and tehn click on Balefire) you'll see that it says, and I quote... "The stronger the weave of balefire, the further back the thread was destroyed." This seems to put a huge hole in your theory considering that it says it depends how much power you put into the weave. Personally, when I read that fight scene, I saw Rand flailing about putting massive amounts of power into the weaves. Probably enough to kill a person a week back (sorry, little bad balefire humor). Same with Moggy, she seemed to kinda mad at seeing Nyn. Naturally, she filled herself with a lot of the one power (or was it TruePower? I can't remember) and basically tried to fry everything around teh boat and on the boat. That's what I got out of that scene as well, though it has been a while. Well, those were just my thoughts, hope they didn't seem to insulting
True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't.
-Deathbone1 
Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)
We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
Life finds a way.
He wasn't trying to blast Rahvin back far enough to return Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean to the living. He was pissed that he'd lost Mat and Avi, not to mention the fact that Rahvin supposedly killed Morgase. It just happened to work out where they were back alive.
As for the darkhounds, Rand used a small amount to kill them, thus nothing else was touched.
He may be right in a way about intent, to an extent, but that has nothing to do with the power of the weave. If Rand did want to bring back someone who died by lets say a trolloc. Then he would put enough power into it to accomplish the feat. Though if he were mad and wasn't trying to do anything but kill then he wouldn't through out weak fireballs. He'd send ones that could blow up villages.
I don't quite recall the details of the scene with Rand and Rahvin, but are you sure that Rand did not consider bringing Mat, Aviendha, Asmodean back? Can someone please reply?
It could have also hust been tavaren luck that this happened, but I still would not like to discard this part of my theory unless there are some certainties that it's wrong.
Also, what parts of the theory did you think were too wrong, or tooo skimpy on evidence, or too vague? I'm going to rewrite this theory, and I want to take in some suggestions, as well as anything you may want to add.
Wotmania Writers' Guild
The only intent in Balesfire is the person conciously making it x long by x wide by x deep. Rand just wanted to make sure Rahvin was dead so he produced the strongest balefire he could do. This he realised later was good as it had brought his fri#iends back. Moggy wanted to kill Nyn but I think she slipped or something like that and ended up killing the band and slicing the ship, hence the movement back of teh boat in the water. This was not her intent so therefor, according to your theroey, how can she have killed them? The Back sister could not control the balefire as she was producing something she had never seen before. She I think she may also ahve been producing balefire that she was not powerful enough to control.
Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe
ummmm, what about when a channeler weaves air to pick up a glass of wine, or to lift a human being???? different weaves? or does the weave divine intent? I think not. One can weave fire so as to burn the clothing off someone without touching their skin, or to level a mountain. Same principle right?
Da Mook
"You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are." LiterateDog to me, of course
"snoop elsewhere" -Pevara
i doubt that Rand was trying to save Asmodean, but did he even know at the time that Matrim and Aviendha was dead, between the anger of Rhavin killing Morgase and fighting for his life he didn't have time to think. And I'm not sure but at the time when he fought Rhavin wasn't he fighting with LTT to keap his body. His anger and current struggle all but forced him to take a chance and end the fight he put all his anger into the balefire thus more OP.
As for the stones thats easier then sleeping. Just look at the stone out of the dream world they were untouched while in the dream world they had or have holes in them. The world of dreams is not really part of the pattern and since Rand and Rhavin entered there in the body they were balefireing a reflection of the stones not the stones them selves, where as Moghedian had balefired the actual boat.
We live and die, but which one comes first?
I am not really trying to prove you wrong (I disagree but that is not the intent of this post). I saw that you were wrong when you said that Rand just wanted to destroy the darkhounds and so nothing else was destroyed. "Remebring what had happened before, Rand darted to one side as he channeled, the shaft of liquid white fire streaking by the door as it destroyed the Shadowspawn. he had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at teh far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it." His intent was to confine the destruction to the darkhounds but he still destroyed the wall.
Half the stuff in here is completely inaccurate. I'll go through point by point and prove it using actual quotes not what is barely remembered by the original poster.
Rand never channels balefire in T'A'R up until he actually kills Rahvin. The flashing back and forth is of the damage he caused in the real world. The flashing is likely caused by the fact that all the World's of If have the same T'A'R which would mean that in at least some of them the battle between Rand and Rahvin would not occur or at least occur differently, hence the changing from solid walls to holes in the walls.
There's no evidence that Rahvin is not a strong Dreamwalker, in fact considering that Rahvin almost magages to turn Rand into some kind of animal, not an easy task according to Moggy in tFoH, A Silver Arrow, "There are only nine of us now who know that binding, and you would not want any of the others to have you any more than myself." To me this implies that all of the Forsaken have quite a bit of knowledge about T'A'R.
The balefire used against Nynaeve in tSR doesn't destroy the whole wall only the part that the balefire touches, exactly the same as Rand's and Rahvin's balefire in tFoH.
Actually the balefire does continue through the Darkhounds, "He had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at the far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it. Not all the way through, he thought - it was hard to tell by moonlight - but he would have to fine his control of this weapon." Again the balefire only causes a small hole in the wall, not the entire destruction of the wall.
Moggy's intention was to kill Nynaeve, she was distracted which caused her to jerk the weave up to the middle of the ship instead of the cabin which is what killed the two men from the Band and the rowers.
Rand's last thought before killing Rahvin is, "
Saidin raged inside Rand, and he loosed it all. Not to Heal." His reaction to seeig Avi and Mat alive is one of surprise and joy, "Balefire. Balefire that burned a thread out of the Pattern. The stronger that balefire was, the urther back that burning went. And whatever that person had done
no longer had happened. He did not care if his blast had unraveled half the Pattern. Not if this was the result."
So far as we know, everyone has their own style of weaving, but never two styles of weaving the same thing. Weaves can be stronger or weaker, or cut off, but no person knows two different styles of weaving balefire. Balefire is hot, liquid fire. It annihilates. We don’t know much about what balefire is, but it would have a lot of kinetic energy, and would travel faster because of this, if it were physical. If it were based on waves, then the massive heat would mean that the wave would move very quickly. I can rant on and on about physics, but the point is it moves quickly, so a weave of balefire will not be stopped by will.I don't even know what the point of all this is, however, you're wrong about the speed of balefire, in WH Dashiva lifts his hands to balefire Rand and at that same moment he is consumed by Elza's flame. Also while highly unlikely it is possible to learn more than one way to weave anything, Avi thinks about this as she opens the gateway to leave Ebou Dar and how it's not the same way that she originally opened a gateway to escape Rand. The general effect is that it is harder to perform the second learned version of the weave resulting in a weaker weave.
Balefire can kill multiple people in one blow by being swung or just moved in a certain direction, like in aCoS after Rand kills Liah, "Screaming, Rand swept the balefire down toward the square, . . ." Or because of Moggy's sudden jerk in direction her balefire cut the boat in half and also killed four men.
Anyway, there's also Moiraine's quote on how the strength of balefire is what effects how far out of the Pattern someone is burned, "The greater the power of balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will only remove a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger. Very much so."
So I'm gonna have to say emphatically NO, balefire is just a weave that likely contains a large amount of Spirit, hence the reason it can burn threads out of the Pattern, but just a weave nontheless.
Jim
Sir Jim
Lord of Minutia™
King of WoT MB Posts™
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
I think that perhaps I'm a bit too unsure of some areas of the books, so I'm going to reread the whole series. I've only read it once so far, but after reading it again, I'll pick up on things. As I go along, I'll make notes on balefire, page references, etc., and I'll probably come to a revised and new theory later next month. It'll probably be much more comprehensive as well.
Thanks for the help, and please continue shredding apart my theory.
Wotmania Writers' Guild
I'm pretty sure that in the books there is a good reson for why balefire stops. Rand is able to control finger-thin flows of balefire when he is destroying the Trollocs in Caemlyn after he kills Rahvin by cutting off the flows of The Power as soon as the balefire comes into contact with the object that he is aiming with. If balefire didn't act in this way, it would keep on going forever, destroying everything that ever crossed its path, and we know that doesn't happen.
If someone can't see what they are aiming at, or don't cut off the flows in time, the balefire will go through walls until the flows are stopped. What does everyone think of that?
Here it is, my first wotmania post. I'm very excited about my debut to the world... Okay, no pressure. Here we go.
The reason it seems to go as far as the channeler wants is because they just release the weave before it gets too far. Rand just basically blasted Rhavin, so far that even the Darkhounds were gone. Rand didn't pick a specific distance, he's just so powerful it happened. Moggy was rushing, plus she was very far away, so she just blasted the boat. (Although it must have been much weaker balefire, as Rand's burned back to the beginning of FoH, and Moggy's just made the boat be a little more upstream).
I amuse myself.
Moghedien's will in the case of the boat was to kill Nyneave, but she was spooked and twitched. The Balefire missed its intended target of the cabin and blew through the rest of the boat. Direction, not intent, aims Balefire. The amount of power used in the weave, not intent, determines the size of the Balefire. I don't recall the exact references, but the Balefire of Rhavin was a hugh weave, I believe as big around as Rhavin was tall. The Trollocs outside the palace in Camelyn, however, were small, thin threads, so they wouldn't go through their targets.
Questions, Comments, Thoughts?
Geoff
Artificial Intelligence 
is no match for
Natural Stupidity 
I always thought of Balefire like phasers in Star Trek, set to "vaporise" or whatever, they just keep going until you stop pulling the trigger (before all those Trekkies get really mad, I know phasers have a range, and that there's quite alot of stuff they don't go through... but you get the point). The only reason it stops is that some of it is "used" destroying whatever it is destroying. ie. the balefire went few a few things because the "trigger" was "pressed" for a longer amount of time than when it didn't go through so much.
So to sum up... how much power you put into the weave governs how far back the thread is burned, how long you create the balefire for, strong or weak, is how much it can destoy.
I think that makes sense.
You said balefire can't be stopped in full swing, and basically it can only do what it is intended to do, but what about the end of ACOS? Rand balefires Leah, then swings it around to kill sammy, but how can he focus completely enough on 2 different things to do them both?
quick question: What would happen if someones feet (only his feet) were hit by balefire? Would the person have lived his entire life without feet, would he be destroyed completely or something else? And what would happen if one was hit in his chest with a very thin ray of balefire?
A balefire weave which hits a thread annhiliate the thread not just a part of it.
I Can't remember where this was in the series (don't have my books with me) but I think I remember Rand swinging his balefire through multiple enemies. Anyone else remember something like this or is it just me?
Worm 
Is that a sun, or a shuriken?
WoT Women all sniff entirely too much 
All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! 
the Harvester of Mankind 
Angel of Cleira 
A little info on balefire