A Possible Way to Enter the Tower of Ghenjei

Great idea.

Unfortunately, half of the time the characters don't see what's under their noses.

Just like real life!

I like this theory, but it's probably too simple to work. I bet the Finns have already thought of this possibility and have set up something to prevent people from entering or leaving the Tower like this. If this idea were true and a channeler is stuck in the Tower, couldn't they escape through a gateway?

A good Simple theory, but dont forget that not only is The Tower of Ghengi connected to the OP, but also connected to TAR, i dont think this could be gotten around except thru TAR !




= "God Bless Natalie Portman's parents !!!!"


Cheers,
Demon

Very good. Something else I hadn't thought about. It's simple and thats why I like it. Good work!

Columbo is on the Case!

Also, someone just mentioned above that if you can channel and create a gateway to get in, will it not work the same to get out? If that's possible then maybe Moraine is already free as I have supected she might be. Moraine seemed to have knowledge of the Ter'angreal and the Finns prior to falling through the doorway. Did Moraine possess knowledge that would allow her to escape in a way that is like or simular this theory? I believe that either Moraine is free or dead. As you can tell I'm leaning in favor of alive, free of the Finns and working behind the scenes at the moment.


'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'

MAkes sense, but as soeone said above: they cant see what's under their noses. Then again, wasnt the tower somehow not in the real world? Or not in this dimension or something? I think that Birgette said something of the like in tSR, but I cant remember for sure. That could have an effect with the gateway, but I like the idea!


Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.

W.A.S.T.E.

I can't imagine her alive and walking around..she's not dead as Rand needs her we see from Min's visions so she's trapped

He to simple...maybe...but maybe RJ just wants to mess with us once and just have it be simple hehe seeing as most Look deeply into the problem

It's far too simple. We've all been dying to know how to get Moiraine back, and just simply having Rand make a gateway would be a huge let-down. Also, as many people have said, the Finn probably wouldn't be too pleased about that possibility, and may very well have set up something to stop this. However, as far as we know, it is possible, and I praise your way of thinking.

Two thoughts:
1) Finnland is not in our dimension. (Well, we all knew that - ever been to Helsinki? ) Remember how Rand and Mat in the Aelfinn ter'angreal were about to rip away the connection between the main dimension and the Finn's dimension? (No, fellow EQ members, it should not be "Finns'" because "Finn" is the plural of "Finn".) The world of the Finn is quite obviously not in a physical location in the our world. (I say "our world" and "our dimension" because I hate Randland!) I suspect that if anyone tried to make a gateway into the Tower of Ghenjei (why can no-one spell it? The Tower of Genji is a Japanese novel. It's so simple...), they would fall into a nothingness, like the Skimming universe or like what happens to women trying to Travel like men. Obviously though this is pure speculation.

2) The possibility is not under the characters' noses; it is under our noses! Not all the characters know everything that we do. Rand has only vaguely heard of the Tower of Ghenjei, and only seen it as a faraway point of light reflected from the sun, when he was sailing down the Arinelle with Bayle Domon all the way back in tEotW. He's probably forgotten all about it by now anyway, what with everything he's been through. He also has no idea that it has anything to do with the Finn. Remember, Perrin is the only one who knows this, from when Birgitte spoke to him in the World of Dreams. Perrin has not seen it in the real world, and Mat and Rand have, but Rand and Mat know nothing more about it than that it is a big metal tower with no door standing in the middle of nowhere. Mat probably can't even remember it, since he was under the dagger's influence at the time. Perrin and Rand both know the name "Tower of Ghenjei", but neither has mentioned it to the other, and thus neither knows that the other has heard of it. Perrin knows that the Tower of Ghenjei has to do with the Finn, and that the ter'angreal through which Moiraine fell does as well, so presumably, if it is any of the three ta'veren who rescues Moiraine, it should be Perrin. No one but Perrin, I think, knows both of these two things, as Birgitte was not around when Moiraine and Lanfear fell through the ter'angreal.

3)(OK, OK, three thoughts; shall I come in again? Nobody expects the English Quisition!) If this does happen, it would suggest that all three ta'veren and Thom will rescue her. Let's look at why:

Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, and iron to bind. Snakes and Foxes is a memory of dealings with the Finn, and can only be won by cheating. The Finn forbid people visiting through the two ter'angreal to bring lanterns, musical instruments, or things made of iron. Obviously they're scared of them, so they can probably be defeated by these things. Children's chants can be very indicative of past events, both in real life and it the Wheel of Time (c.f. the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" chant), as they are passed down orally and do not change. In fact, they are one of the last remnants of our ancient oral traditions. I would imagine that Jordan knows this. Thus, it could well be that the rhyme is the only remaining memory from the last Third Age, although it doesn't have to be - I myself generally get pretty sceptical when people talk about ages before the First. The suggestion is that only these four things, working together, can defeat the Finn. The chant may (or may not) be a memory from when they were defeated by Rand, Mat, Perrin and Thom seven Ages ago.

Mat: Courage to strengthen. He is a great general, and has many memories of being a soldier, therefore obviously Courage. He has had dealings with the Finn before, having visited both, and would love to get back at them both for cheating him (as he sees it). His foxhead amulet will probably be important. Perhaps it will make them listen to the heroes, instead of killing them, or something? He was also in the same viewing of Egwene's that showed Thom pulling a blue stone out of a fire.

"Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead."

They could be seperate, but the "while" does seem to suggest that they are linked somehow. Mat is with Thom at the moment.

Rand: Fire to blind. He can Travel, so he can get the guys into the Tower in the first place. When he went to see the Aelfinn in Tear, he blinded them with his sword of Fire. Nuff said, I think.

Thom: Music to dazzle. Obviously: he's a musician, and Egwene saw him pulling Moiraine's stone out of a fire. Simple enough.

Perrin: Iron to bind. As we all know, he's a blacksmith. He also is the one with the knowledge needed to work out that Moiraine is in there in the first place. He knows more about the place than anyone else, and it's quite obvious from his conversation with Hopper and Birgitte that he's going to go in there some day.

I think Perrin will not go in there together with Rand, Mat and Thom (assuming, of course, that it does happen this way). He will enter it via the Wolf Dream. He has seen the Tower there, and I have a feeling that his rescuing Faile from T'A'R in tDR was a foreshadowing of this. Perhaps they will meet up there, somehow being in the same place although Perrin is in T'A'R and the others are in the real world (I think Finnland is probably like that - a mixture or Crossroads between the two.) The fact that they escape at all afterwards will probably have something to do with the fact that Perrin is there in the Dreamworld and not in the real world. Perhaps he can change stuff around with his mind to get them out, or can exit by waking up; I don't know.

Much of number (3) is influenced by Three In A Boat's theory, "Courage to strengthen..." in the "Moiraine" section of the Theory post. However, before you rally with cries of plagiarism, he thought that Egwene was the courage and Mat was the fire.

Conclusion: Mat, Rand, Thom and Perrin are the Courage, Fire, Music and Iron that alone, and in conjunction with each other, can defeat the Finn and rescue Moiraine.

Yours, .


You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!


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Snakes have alreydy Seen Mat and Rand, so if they tried to save Moiraine Snakes would know everything about it and they would not allow them to steal their pet AS. Naturally assuming that Snakes really have ability to see all possible actions and destiny of their customers and they want keep her. After all if I knew when and how burglar is going to break in my house I would do my best to stop him. So I think that it would be a good idea if Moiraine would be saved by someone who is not already Seen by Snakes.

No. You get into the tower by making a sign of a triangle intersected with a wavy line, and chant the verse: "Courage to strengthen, iron to bind, music to dazzle, fire to blind."
In LoC, Mat and Olver are playing Snakes and Foxes. When they start a new game that is what Olver does to open the game. I cant remember what page, around 600 odd, but those actions tickle something in Mats memories when Olver asks why you are supposed to say that when there is no iron mmusic etc, but he cant remember what.
Also, the quote at the start of the book about letting the Lord of Chaos rule. Another chant from a childrens game.
Remember: Stories fade to legend, and legend fade to myth...
Where else to hide a very important piece of historical advice then in a often played, very innocent, and puzzling childrens game. Children do not corrupt things as badly as adult do. They also BELIEVE in the fantastic, whereas adults order things into Real and Unreal, with no shades of grey.

There's my piece. If anyone remembers or finds the pg no., I would be greatful for it.


Balefried

DARTH DRAGON

"Truth begins as heresy."

The new book cover says that Perrin is "willing to sell his soul" to get her back. I also think I have read this somewhere before, I thought it was on the cover of WH, but I just read it and I guess not. At any rate, perhaps Perrin will go see the foxes, via the tower, and ask for his wifes safe return. He will of course have to pay a price for this...

I don't really have anymore to add to this bit, but it could mean something.


"Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?"

"I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!"

Windsor:
It was on the cover of "A Path of Daggers" that Perrin was going to give his soul to save her.



För övrigt anser jag att Mordor bör förstöras.

I was under the impression that the short-distance traveling was only possible with a direct line-of-sight. I don't think it actually mentions that anywhere, but that was how I interpreted the ability. Like when the asha'man are searching for Seanchan in the forest, they bounce from hill-top to hill-top. And in Rand's case in Illian, it was a tower-top that was visible to him on the ground.

I think that the foxes are using Moraine against the snakes. Moraine clawed the angreal away from Lanfear when she tackled her, so Moraine was definetly the more powerful of the two upon entering. She killed Lanfear and the foxes melted the doorway to keep her there and use her against the snakes.

We first learn of point-blank Travelling in the last chapter of ACOS when Rand is hunting Sammael. He Travels a short distance through the palace to a place about three floors directly above him. He muses "You didn't have to know a place at all if you only wanted to Travel a short distance. Therefore, you don't need to see the place, just know where you want to go.


You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!


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I had forgotten about the triangle intersected with a wavy line that goes with the chant . Doesn't that remind you of the symbols that are found on Portal Stones? Perhaps that's the way to enter Finnworld and rescue Moiraine? It's a thought anyway...


"There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do."
Death

I think Rand mentions the Triangle/wavy line thing at some point. Book 4?

Hi there. This is my first time posting, so be nice to me. ^.^

About the wavy line enclosed in a triangle, my first thoughts on that, I thought, were fairly obvious. Think of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn -- one race described as Foxes, the other as Snakes. A triangle (point down, of course) is roughly the shape of a fox's face, and of course a wavy line symbolises a snake. So the symbol traced in the air would naturally one of the Finns.

Or, so I think.

Ana

I have always held to the idea that mat will rescue her. Mainly because of his conection to the Finn and he has Thom with him. Also there are the refrences to mat rediscovering gunpowder, and reinventing cannons (See Egwen's dreams for gunpowder) The cannons not only fit the music, fire and iron he has been looking for a bellfounder, and it's uses. Cannons are made the same way bells are. I say he will get cannons and blast his way in, kinda like at the stone, but that is just me.

Two points:
1. Aludra's matches(firesticks) equal fire. She has been perfecting the formula for some time now. Mat has samples of them.
2. Although making gateways on a line of sight basis works well in Randland, the premise of knowing both the starting and ending points would be essential when jumping from RL to the world of the Eelfinn. Even though the outside of the tower is physically in RL, the inside is very far away. I'd hate to be there for that trip. Besides, Rand thinks Moiraine is dead saving him from Lanfear and has other skulls to knock.

In TSR, when Mat, Rand, and Moiraine all went into the redstone doorframe ter'angreal in Tear, there were wavy lines running along the sides of the doorframe. That doorframe led to the Aelfinn (the snakes) who told him all his prophecies and whatnot. When Mat went through the redstone doorframe ter'angreal in Rhuidean, it had triangles along the edges. That doorframe led to the Eelfinn (the foxes), who gave him his memories, the ashanderei, the foxhead ter'angreal, and the hanging scar. While I don't know about making the little hand gestures from the beginning of the game Snakes and Foxes to access the Tower of Ghenjei, I can definitely tell you that those symbols are the symbols for the snakes/Aelfinn (wavy lines) and the foxes/Eelfinn (triangles).

How can we be sure that Moiraine is really alive? Didn't Lan feel her die, or feel his bond being passed to someone else? And if Lanfear was brought back to life as Cyndane, dosn't that suggest that she had to die in the first place to be brought back? And how can we be sure that if she did survive that she is in the tower, unless I missed someting, which is entirly possible.

When traveling over short distances you don't need to have studies the place where you're traveling to, but you do need to be able to see it. If Rand opened a gateway right outside the Tower of Ghenjei how would he or anyone know where you would come out. You might come out into a wall or something.


Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.

It's time to roll the dice.

The page number that the passage about Snakes and Foxes begins on is 640...

'Leaning on his elbow, Mat examined the game of Snakes and Foxes laid out on the tent floor...

...piece of red cloth with the web of lines drawn in only one way and which both.' (note: and which both? am i missing something?)

'Ten pale wooden discs each with an inked triangle were the foxes, ten with a wavy line the snakes.

"We'll win this time, Mat," Olver said excitedly. "I know we will."
"Maybe," Mat said. The two black-stained discs were nearly back to the circle in the middle of the board, but the next roll of the dice would be for the snakes and foxes. Most of the time you did not make it as far as the outer edge. "Roll the dice." He never touched the dice cup himself, not since the day he had given it to the boy; if they were going to play the game, it might as well be without his luck taking a hand...'

'...Only a child's game, but Mat did not like the fox getting him, and even less the snakes. It brought back bad memories, even if one had nothing to do with the other.
"Well," Olver muttered, "we almost won. Another game, Mat?" Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened the game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. "'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.' Mat, why do we say that? There is no fire, no music and no iron."
"I don't know." The line tickled something in the back of his head, but he could not bring it up. The old memories from the ter'angreal might as well have been chosen at random -- they probably had been -- and there were all those gaps in his own, all those fuzzy places.'

----------

Well. At first, I thought that perhaps Mat's luck did not work with Snakes and Foxes, but I read this for the first time in a few months and remembered that Olver always rolls the dice.
'...all those fuzzy places [in his memory]' Like when the dagger had him all crazy? Likely why he doesn't remember the Tower. There's no telling whether or not he would put the Tower together with the game if he remembered it. He might. But it also says the memories may be chosen at random... well... what about Mat's luck? He usually gets random thoughts when he needs them, but not now. Perhaps because he doesn't remember the Tower.
I imagine that using a gateway would not open/get you into the Tower... it's too simple, really, and it *is* in another dimension, unless the theory about the T'A'R is correct (which it very well may be!). The triangle/wavy line seems to make more sense. I don't think Rand has played Snakes and Foxes -- can anyone confirm that? He might remember the two ter'angreal with the wavy line/triangle borders and parallel it to the game, if he has.
I do agree with the courage, fire, music, and iron being the ta'veren and Thom. It makes sense.

Well. There's no way to tell, really... but I suppse we shall RAFO. *sniffs*



Lissa M. Rose

"Bring out your dead!"

"You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Tower of Ghenjei first visited in Tel'aran'rhiod? Or was it the wolf dream, because I thought it was Perrin. Anyway, no matter where they first saw it, they don't know anything around it, yes? Now, how do you find something if you don't know where it is? They'd have to have gone searching for a landmark or something to know where it was. Just a thought. I'm probably wrong, but... whatever.


Falalalala la la la barf <br>
Constantly <br>
Always <br>
Mostly <br>
Never <br>

Well, they saw the Tower from Bayle Domon's Spray on the way to Whitebridge.

(*after hunting up TEoTW and the right page

Page 355...


'...the sun glinted off something in the distance. "What can that be?" Rand wondered aloud. "It looks like metal."'

Then, from Bayle:

"It do be metal," he said... "A tower of metal. I have seen it close up, and I know. River traders use it as a marker. We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go."

"A metal tower?" Rand said, and Mat, sitting cross-legged with his back against a barrel, roused from his brooding to listen. (note-- so he would remember it! that is, if the dagger didn't layer on the amnesia)

"Aye. Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust. Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no mark on it and never an opening to be found.

"I'll bet there's treasure inside," Mat said... "A thing like that must have been made to protect something valuable."'


And then it goes on to talk about the statue sa'angreal on Tremalking. Well, I was mistaken -- Mat wasn't under the dagger's influence. But there's no reason for him to put together a tower of steel and moiraine's disappearance, though, is there?

The measurements coincide with Perrin's wolfdream.


Lissa M. Rose

"Bring out your dead!"

"You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!"

Ok, first things first. To Travel over short distances, the one making the gateway does not need to *see* the place he/she is Traveling to, nor do they need to be familiar with the place they are Traveling from. I believe Eyeless_Myrddraal pointed this out using a reference from CoS where Rand is hunting Sammael.

This actually happens a few times. First, Rand Traveled from the Square of Tammaz to the top of one of the towers on the King's Palace (pg. 835 paperback, CoS). Arguably, Rand could see the top of the tower from the Square, so let's go the next example.

Later in that chapter, while waiting atop the tower for Sammael to come back to Illian, Rand feels a man channel. He quickly weaves a gateway from the top of the tower to a room somewhere in the Great Hall of the Council, across the Square of Tammaz (pg. 837-838 paperback, CoS). Since Rand's gateway opened INTO a room, he couldn't possibly see where his gateway was coming out. Rather, he had to place the gateway based on where he felt the man channel. Once again, there is a good counter-point though. Rand was on top of the tower for quite awhile, so he was probably familiar with it by then. By 'awhile' I mean that he Traveled to Illian when "Overhead, the golden sun was more than halfway down to the horizon." (pg. 831 paperback, CoS) and Sammael didn't return to Illian until "Twilight, and the sun a low crimson dome in the west." (pg. 837 paperback, CoS). So, to minimize arguments, let's proceed to the next example.

In the Great Hall of the Council, after exchanging a few wicked Power blasts, Sammael taunts Rand into following him. Rand feels a gateway open and close above him, then "Weaving a gateway, he stepped through, to a place floors above." (pg. 840 paperback, CoS). This example shows Rand weaving a gateway a short distance from a place he is not familiar with to a place he cannot see.

My case is closed.

BUT, being the long-winded person I am, I must lastly say that this scene with Sammael isn't the first example of short-distance Traveling. That honor goes to the end of FoH when Rand & his raiding party Skin to Caemlyn. Recall that while they are standing there in the street, someone (Rahvin) attacks them with saidin and kills a bunch of people, including Mat, Asmodeam and Aviendha. At this point Rand goes into killer Lews Therin mode, then he wastes some Trollocs and before they even die he opens a gateway right through their bodies. The exact passage is "...a gateway opened right where they stood. ...but Rand was staring through the opening. Not into blackness, but a great columned hall with lion-carved stone panels..."

As proof that it was indeed Rand (in killer Lews Therin mode, of course) who opened this gateway (though anyone arguing that it was someone else [Rahvin? Asmodean?] is a fool), see a few pages later. "A residue hung in the air... Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skin to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel--he knew now that was what he had done--into the throneroom." (pg. 935 paperback, FoH).

Wow that was fun. I am about to put up another b-board post discussing Traveling to other dimensions, which will finally make my GRAND POINT that Traveling into the Tower of Ghenjei is totally possible. Stay tuned.


I seek an end to ignorance. Mine above all others


I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.

Ok, my last post about Traveling over short distances was IMHO pretty obvious, but I always feel more comfortable making a point clear before proceeding.

This next one is also kind of obvious, but not on the same level of clarity. Therefore my post is a HECK of a lot longer.

Here I will make a case for Traveling to other dimensions, and that will finally (combined with my previous post) show why I think Had's theory is entirely possible. By 'dimensions' I mean other worlds of the Pattern; the kinds of worlds reachable by the Portal Stones, and some not reachable by the stones (like *finnland).

In the prologue to LoC the second to last sub-section takes place in an odd room that I believe to be a vacuole, those odd 'bubbles' in the Pattern outside of the 'real world.' I am going to use a handy description of these vacuole given in aCoS to demonstrate this. I will then show that it is possible to use the One Power to Travel into a vacuole, which is outside of the Pattern. Given this possibility, and the inarguable fact that it is also possible to Travel into T'A'R, I will ultimately show that Traveling to another dimension/world is completely possible.

Let's start with aCoS so we have an idea of what I'm talking about.

In chapter 25, after Ishy/Moridin asks Moghedien if she enjoyed her time in the vacuole, she reacts thusly, "Moghedien felt icy fingers dig into her scalp. She was no researcher or maker, but she knew that word. She did not even think to ask how a young man of this time did, too. Sometimes there were bubbles in the Pattern, though someone like Mesaana would say that was too simple an explanation. Vacuoles could be entered, if you knew how, and manipulated much like the rest of the world--researchers had often done great experiments in vacuoles, so she vaguely remembered hearing--but they were outside the Pattern really, and sometimes they closed up, or perhaps broke off and drifted away. Even Mesaana could not say what happened--except that anything in them at the time was gone forever." (pg. 532-533 paperback, aCoS)

So we have Moghedien giving us a description of vacuoles from her limited knowledge of them. She definitely knows they are 'outside the Pattern.' She also considers Mesaana more knowledgeable on the matter. Not just more knowledgeable, but an authority on the subject as someone who has studied them.

Now back to the LoC prologue, the second to last sub-section in Mesaana's POV. "The chamber had the appearance of a palace sitting room--vaulted ceiling of worked plaster, finely woven carpets on the white-tiled floor, elaborately carved paneling for the walls--though it was far from any palace. Indeed, it was far from anywhere, in any way that most humans would understand." (pg. 65 paperback, LoC)

This sounds like a vacuole to me. The most indicative comment I can make is the the correlation between the part about being 'far from anywhere' and Moghedien's observation about vacuoles being 'outside the Pattern.' Also, since this is in Mesaana's POV the part about 'in any way most humans would understand' says to me that she is one of the humans who WOULD understand, which also correlates nicely with Moghedien considering her an authority on the matter.

I used to think that this meeting between Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana & Semirhage took place at one of the places near Shayol Ghul where reality is malleable. Let's call them SG_Rooms to avoid confusion. This is contradicted by one main observation though. First, the SG_Rooms are close to Shayol Ghul, whereas Mesaana thinks that the chamber they are in is "...far from any palace. Indeed, it was far from anywhere..." which would include, of course, being far from Shayol Ghul. So they're not in a SG_Room.

This observation of Mesaana's about being 'far from anywhere' sounds NOTHING like the way the Chosen think when they are at one of the SG_Rooms. Here are some instances...

Ishy/Ba'alz says "The place where you stand lies in the shadow of Shayol Ghul." (pg. xxii paperback, tGH) This is preceded by Bors thinking "If one did not look too closely, the huge room could have been in a palace, with its tall marble fireplaces and its golden lamps hanging from the domed ceiling, its colorful tapestries and intricately patterned mosaic floor. If one did not look too closely. The fireplaces were cold, for one thing. Flames danced on logs as thick as a man's leg, but gave no heat. The walls behind the tapestries, the ceiling high above the lamps, were undressed stone, almost black. There were no windows, and only two doorways, one at either end of the room. It was as if someone had intended to give the semblance of a palace reception chamber but had not cared enough to bother with more than the outline and a few touches for detail." (pg. xv paperback, tGH) So here we see that Ishy/Ba'alz is the one who intended an appearance but didn't bother with details.

Then we have...

"Graendal had chosen the setting, since she had been first to arrive, and it irritated him. View-walls made the striped wooden floor appear to be surrounded by a forest full of brightly flowered vines and fluttering birds that were even more colorful. Sweet scents and soft birdcalls filled the air. Only the arch of the doorway spoiled the illusion. Why did she want a reminder of what was lost? They could as soon make shocklances or sho-wings as a view-wall outside of this place, close to Shayol Ghul." (pg. 356 paperback, WH)

There are a few others (when Osan'gar & Aran'gar are introduced in LoC; when Moghedien first meets Ishy/Moridin after being imprisoned in aCoS; when Ishy/Moridin is thinking about the game sha'rah in tPD...) but in all of them the thoughts of the Chosen are nothing like Mesaana's. Their thoughts are more along the lines of it being dangerous to channel there, or odd things happening in the SG_Rooms were to be expected.

So this scene in the prologue of LoC takes place in a vacuole IMHO. To prove that the One Power is used to Travel into the vacuole, consider these two quotes from Mesaana's POV...

"There was no warning, of course. There never was, when a man channeled. A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through..." (pg. 66 paperback, LoC)

...and on the next page...

"She felt the first spinning of saidar a moment before the glowing line appeared and became a gateway."

The words 'gateway', 'vertical line', 'glowing line', 'saidar' and 'a man channeling' ABSOLUTELY 100% prove that both saidar and saidin can be used to Travel into a vacuole. Thus the One Power can be used to get into a place outside of the Pattern.

We also know from chapter 34 in LoC where Egwene Travels into T'A'R to get from Cairhien to Salidar, and from many places in the series where Rand Travels into T'A'R that the One Power can be used to Travel from the 'real world' into the World of Dreams.

The World of Dreams isn't just another world though. Verin describes it best in chapter 21 of tDR, "There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends call it Tel'aran'rhiod, 'the Unseen World.' Perhaps 'the World of Dreams' is a better translation." (pg. 240 paperback, tDR) So here we see that it is possible to Travel from a place in one world to a place in another.

Here are the examples of gateway-making we know about then:
1) Skimming - gateway to "A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it." (pg. 910 paperback, tFoH)
2) 'real world' Traveling - gateway from a place in the 'real world' to another place in the 'real world.' This includes short distance Traveling (see my previous post on this b-board) and long distance Traveling.
3) T'A'R Traveling - gateway from a place in the 'real world' to the same place in the World of Dreams. Interesting how nobody has made a gateway from a place in the 'real world' to a different place in T'A'R, isn't it? Maybe it's not possible.
4) vacuole Traveling - gateway from the 'real world' into a bubble outside of the Pattern. It must be assumed that the reverse is true as well, otherwise in the prologue to LoC all those Chosen would have been stuck in the vacuole until someone let them out. Unlikely.

Ok, so that's a good summary up to this point. I'm going to end this post so I don't chase too many people away. Stay tuned for the conclusion to my mad ranting.


I seek an end to ignorance. Mine above all others


I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.

In my first b-board post for this theory, for those to survived it, I showed that short-distance Traveling was a real thing. In my second b-board post, for those who haven't vowed to hunt me down and make me play Maiden's Kiss with a porcupine herd, I showed the different kinds of gateway-making:

1) gateway from the 'real world' to "A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it." (pg. 910 paperback, tFoH)
2) gateway from a place in the 'real world' to another place in the 'real world.'
3) gateway from a place in the 'real world' to the same place in the World of Dreams.
4) gateway from the 'real world' into a bubble outside of the Pattern.

Now we know that these are not the only places in the Pattern that exist. After all, there are the worlds of 'if' or more commonly known as the worlds accessible via the Portal Stones. It cannot definitively be argued one way or another whether these worlds of 'if' are accessible via Traveling. The WORJWOT does not mention any kind of Traveling to these worlds, but only mentions them in connection with the Portal Stones. That does not mean it is not possible, though.

I am going to use Verin's description of the Great Pattern for my next and LAST section of argument.

"With one finger, Verin drew a number of parallel lines across the area she had cleared, lines clear in dust atop the old beeswax. 'Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way.' 'The worlds reached by the Portal Stones,' Egwene said... 'Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds--even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed--lying like this.' She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. 'The warp and woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds.' "

Now that is some POTENT stuff there! Moreover, I firmly believe that this isn't just a character musing over profound philosophies, but RJ himself telling us about his WOT. I have ZERO proof for this, except for the unshakeable feeling that this chapter is about MUCH MORE than just introducing Egwene to the stone ter'angreal.

I am arguing, based part on speculation and part on Verin's description of the Great Pattern, that Traveling to any of these worlds (worlds of 'if' and the 'cross-hatched' worlds) is difficult, but not impossible. The difficulty would be in knowing where to have the gateway open. The reason that these worlds of 'if' were not regularly Traveled to is because ending up in the exact world would be very difficult. Too many of these worlds of 'if' would be so similar that a slight variation (accidental or intentional) in weaving a gateway might put you in a different world than the one you had intended to reach.

This might be simplified if, say, an Aes Sedai used a Portal Stone to visit some worlds. Let's say they found one they liked, to collect grolm for instance, then marked it somehow. Maybe they placed a 'marker' of the Power in the special world, similar to Rand touching his conduit of saidar to the male half of the Source in WH. That's pure speculation though. Maybe they Traveled back from this special world and in doing so made it easier to Travel to it from the 'real world.' More speculation there, but I haven't read anything to the contrary either. Regardless of how difficult it is to enter these worlds of 'if' I do not think that it has any bearing on Traveling to the world of the *finn.

These other worlds Verin illustrated that 'cross-hatched' the worlds of 'if', which were supposedly harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones. What about them? I truly think that *finnland is one of these worlds. It is not a world of 'if'. *finnland is completely foreign to the 'real world,' so much so that it fits in this second set of worlds. But the MOST IMPORTANT observation to make about *finnland is that two ter'angreal were MADE by wielders of the Power to connect it to the 'real world.' That means, SOMEHOW *finnland was first accessed by wielders of the Power, who were then able to construct a means to bridge the two worlds.

This next statement seems so obvious IMHO that I hesitate to say it. The doorframes were ter'angreal, which means they used the One Power. Period. Whether or not any ter'angreal requires channeling, they ALL USE THE ONE POWER. Therefore THE ONE POWER can be used to access *finnland. And guess what? It can still be used to access *finnland!

We know *finnland isn't a world of 'if' accessible through the Portal Stones. That eliminates the Portal Stones as a means for the initial discovery of *finnland. We know that it is possible to enter *finnland through the Tower of Ghenjei. Perhaps this is how the original doorframe ter'angreal designers were able to access it, through the ToG. Then they could have Traveled back to the 'real world' and worked on the doorframes. This is PURE speculation. But undeniably there were people in a previous Age who were able to wield the One Power, who accessed *finnland, then designed ter'angreal to permanently connect the two worlds. These ter'angreal could then be used in the absence of people who could use the One Power to connect the two worlds. I suggest that they initially did it through the ToG simply because Traveling to *finnland on accident (without even knowing it existed, let alone knowing where to Travel to) is near impossible.

However, Rand happens to know where this world is. He has been there, even if it was only to the Snakes part (are they the Eel* or Aef*? I can never remember!). Traveling back to that place would not be as hard for him.

So I have shown that the One Power can be used to access *finnland. I have shown that among those capable of making gateways, Rand has the best idea of where in the Great Pattern *finnland lies. I have shown that making gateways outside of the Pattern is possible, as is making gateways between worlds. All the pieces are there for Had's theory to work.

I sincerely apologize to all folks who hate me now. I just couldn't take all the unsupported speculation and/or incorrect memories of the series surfacing to shoot down Had's good theory.

Now I do have to say that I don't agree with Had's theory at all. Though it is possible for it to happen, I don't think a gateway will be the way the rescuers get into *finnland. I think the ToG is the key to getting in. As Birgitte told Perrin, "Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men." (pg. 462 paperback, tSR) It IS possible to enter the ToG in the 'real world' and cheating is the only way out. Sorry Had. Thumbs down.

I AM SO INSANE FOR SPENDING ALL THIS TIME SUPPORTING AN ARGUMENT THAT I DIDN'T AGREE WITH!!!


I seek an end to ignorance. Mine above all others



I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.

or three...


Short and sweet

I have always thought that Lanfear and Moraine somehow witched bodies and abilities. When Lanfear comes back as Cyndane, she has the capability of maybe a strong modern Aes Sedai. I know this has nothing to do with the posting, but I saw it in the thread. About getting into the tower of Genghi, the only way to beat those creepy A's and E's is to cheat. I think that the One Power is cheating. I have always believed that the One Power and True Power are not naturally given to humans. It was at one time brought out in the people of Rand land. So Rand or some channeler is goign to have to help get Moraine out, cause the Dark One or Moridin got Cyndane out.

A good topic to bring up, but I don't believe that the tower could be entered using the Power and Gateways. In SR Perrin followed Slayer in "The Wolf Dream" to the Tower of Ghenjei. There Perrin saw Birgitte and was told to leave rather quickly. (I'm sorry I don't have any of the books with me right now and I cannot look any of this up right now.) The only living characters who know anything about the Finn are Rand, Matt, Birgitte(though her memory seems to be fading), Luc, Tairen and Myan nobility, and any other Aes Sedai who may have studied breifly as Moiriane did of the Finn and the ter'angreal. If any of the main characters were to go after Moiraine, I believe it would have to be Perrin under the guidence of Birgitte. However, Perrin doesn't know the purpose of the ter'angreal and I'm not sure Birgitte knows the whole deal if anything about Moiraine.
In my opinion a rescue is out of the question and if we were to see Moiraine again, it would be she who got herself out.


Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.

Lord of the Range
Right Hand of the Blade
Duke of Boiling Water
Culinary Ruffian

Egwene made a portal from the "real world" to Tel'aran'rhiod when she was summoned to the Hall in Salidar...

moiraine's dead


I'm not Homsar. Really.