In LoC, Chapter 6: "Threads woven in Shadow" (Orbit paperback, p.173), Sammael visits Graendal at her hideout. She disguises herself as an old Domani woman, which implies that she is hiding somewhere in Arad Doman. This is confirmed by a couple of other hints during the same chapter (e.g. mention of the fact that King Asalan rules "this" country). Graendal tells Sammael that Demandred went to Shayol Ghul and she passes along the message that he brought back from the Dark One ("Let the Lord Of Chaos Rule" ). But here is the passage that I literally stumbled over, and it makes me think that I’ve figured out either Demandred’s identity, or at least discovered a very powerful pawn under his control.
This passage is from Sammael’s point of view:
"You deliver a message to Demandred from me. I know what he is up to."
Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred always liked using proxies.
"Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans."
Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work.
"So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear of me or he will answer for it." (LoC p. 183)
"To the South" could mean one of two things. Either this refers to an area to the south of Illian (Sammael’s head quarters), or, more likely, south of where he is at that moment: Arad Doman.
I think he meant the latter, which gives us a nice array of countries to choose from: Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara, for instance. What do all of these countries have in common? Well, for one thing, they’ve all been tormented by the Prophet and his roving bands of Dragonsworn.
So here’s the crux of my theory:
We know that the Chosen were ordered to "let the Lord of Chaos rule."
As stated in many other theories, order helps the Creator while chaos helps the Dark One.
In particular, if Rand were the one to spread the chaos, this would actually help the Dark One break free of his prison even quicker.
In the Pit of Doom, Demandred says, "Have I not done well, Great Lord?" and the Great Lord laughs (LoC, Epilogue). So how better for Demandred to fulfill these orders than to spread chaos while claiming to do it in the name of the Dragon Reborn?
Personally, I think that Demandred replaced Masema. Another possibility, though, could be that the Chosen is using Compulsion on Masema (this could explain Sammael’s comment that "he always liked using proxies" ). Either way, I believe that Demandred is involved with the Dragonsworn, and not the Black Tower.
Lauriana Sedai says: I think that it would be awesome if Masema were Demandred, because I'd love to see Rand balefire him. Or maybe Perrin will just cleave him with his axe during the next book, but either way I like the implications of your theory. I, for one, hope you're right. I'll throw it out to the hounds, though, and we'll see what they make of it...
Comments
Winter's Heart, Chapter 13
Wonderful News. Page 317 in the Orbit Hardback. Cyndane reveals to Demandred, Graendal, Aran'gar and Osan'gar that Rand has the Choedan Kal keys.
"And you've just been hoping to blunder into him!" she [Graendal] screamed at Demandred. "Hoping someone will find him for you! Fool! Fool!"
Wherever Demandred is, this proves that he is not with Rand at the moment, but hopes to "blunder into him" and that "someone will find [Rand] for [Demandred]". Not Taim then, but we knew that already. Perrin has come to Masema and promised to bring him to Rand. As you say, "Have I not done well, Great Lord" said by someone who was told to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" points to someone causing chaos, which does sound like Masema to me. However, I think that if Masema is connected with Demandred then he is a pawn rather than Demandred himself.
My reasoning is that when Perrin came to take Masema to Rand, Masema was indignant at the thought of the One Power being used, as it was blasphemy against the Light or some such nonsense. Masema makes Perrin ride for months to get to Rand rather than use a gateway. Demandred would be completely stupid to do that. Why delay yourself by about two months? It's quite obviously not to keep up the disguise of the Prophet, because later on he allows a "dispensation" for Perrin to use gateways to find Faile, on the grounds that "
He [the Lord Dragon] would be grieved if harm came to your wife." He even says he will come with him, going through the gateway himself. If Masema's refusal to allow the Power to be used for transport was just a screen for Demandred to keep up the pretense of being the Prophet, he would never have refused it's use to get to Rand, but allowed it to find Faile. If Masema were Demandred, he could have easily allowed a similar "dispensation" to get to Rand without breaking his cover, on the grounds that Rand would also be displeased if Masema did not come promptly, and that pleasing the Lord Dragon was more important than avoiding blasphemy - everyone would have bought it, and he's so powerful that no-one can gainsay him anyway. It seems likely that, as it was implied that Perrin thought, Masema agreeing to the Travelling was
ta'veren twisting chance and people saying unlikely things.
Conclusion: Masema might well be Demandred's proxy in the South, but not Demandred himself. I don't think there can be a Masemadred. However, I like the idea very much, so if someone can find a way round what I've just said, please do. Masemadred would be a very cool twist.
Yours,
.
You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!
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Fadingoutandnowgone
This is a very, very interesting theory. I have to say that it is very plausable. It also would fit right in with RJ's style. After reading this there were only two groups that fit the quotes. As stated Masaema and the Dragonsworn and the Seanchan. I throw them out there just as an alternate possibility. We already know that the High Lady Suroth is a Darkfriend. That was proven in TGH when Liandrin brought Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve through the Ways and tried to deliver them to Suroth. Now since Suroth is a Darkfriend, and she has arguably the strongest army in Randland, wouldn't make sense that Damandred might be with them. The Seancahn are "carving out" large section of the south. They control Tarabon, the Almoth Plain, most of the Sea Folk Isles (including Tremelking), large portions of Amadicia and Altara and a small portion of Illian. All of those are south of Arad Doman and could fit the discription. As we have seen time and again the Seanchan are great at "carving out".
Now that Tuon and the Halene have come Suroth is not in sole control. But since Tuon has dissapeared or been kidnapped, do you think that Suroth will catch the blame and maybe that will be the end of her. One can hope
.
Wolfbrother
Steadfast Defender of the Light
First: I sent in a theory stating this a year ago and it never got posted. But that's okay, I'm not bitter.
I too believe Demandred to be mixxed up with the Dragonsworn for several reasons. One, it does fit all of the qualifications that were mentioned (proxies, to the south, etc.). Two, the Dragonsworn are the only major group/faction that are not "covered" or influenced by the Forsaken. Three, Taimandred at times seemed a little to obvious for it to be true, plus there was a forsaken already mixxed in with the Black Tower. Four, following these same lines, there is already a Forsaken amongst the Seanchan. I don't remember which one of them it is, but I know they have taken the place of one Tuon's most trusted and close advisors. The Seanchan are therefor ruled out.
I think though that if anything, Masema has been "compulsioned" if that's a word, which could be why he acting like he is, or one of the causes of his insanity. Where Demandred stays when he's not giving Masema his treatments, is a mystery to be solved another time.
Mateo - Seeker of Minute Hints
I think that the truth behind this mystery lies wholly within RJ's accenting the "friends". I cannot come up with any good theories though, but RJ definately accented on purpose. I had also gone so far as to consider Demandred being in the Fortress of Light (till it got raped...) or him being in Tear (though surely Rand would have noticed his presence).
I do agree that Masema might very well be Demandred's proxy, but if Demandred is behind Masema, who are his "friends"? Not dragonsworn i think.
Also, he is almost certainly not with the Seanchan as suggested. It is made clear that the reason Semirhage had difficulty attending Forsaken meetings is due to her placement in the world, and many speculate that Semirhage is with the Seanchan. I doubt she and Demandred would work together even if their supposed tryst (tFoH) still existed.
So, finally, I say this is a tough one, which is why noone here agrees on anything or can support anything with more than a scrap of evidence. Let us hope that some light is shed in book 10, because this particular question has been in my mind for several months.
"TSOROVAN MISAIN YE"
Arcane Invoker
Member of the Shadow Council
Going back to TDR, Sammy meets with the WC badguy Carridin and instructs him send armies into the area south of Arad Doman and basically cause a lot of trouble and tell people they are with Masema. So, I have kinda wondered how much of the beating people up and stealing all their belongings is actually Masema's men, and how much is being done by whitecloaks.
Also, when Sammy comments to Graendal that Demandred and his freinds had better not interefer with his plans, I think he may be refering to his plans with the WC's, not necessarily with his plans in Illian.
I do not think Masema is Demendred. Perrin smells just how crazy Masema is, and I don't think Demmy is crazy. He has the protection from the DO. He may be a proxy. I almost think all the badguy-non forsaken are his proxies.
One note of irony: What if Demmy suggested he was doing good by not doing anything at all? The orders were to "let the Lord of Caos rule." Perhaps all that Demmy did was stand back and let Rand run wild.
Peace, Out V
Pronounced: "Rand was here"
This is one of the best theories we've had in quite a while.
I don't think Demmy IS Masema but Masema MIGHT be under Demmy's control.
I've never bought the Taimadred theory either....especially since we know that Dashiva was Osan'gar....why would the DO waste TWO of his 'Chosen' on watching Rand.....Taim could of course still be a DF(and probably is IMHO) but I don't think he's Demmy.
Of course that still leaves the question of where Demmy is when he's not controlling his proxy/ies.
I am cool, are you?
The kicker of the seals 
The flame that burned down Tar Valon
My arse is the Amyrlin Seat
I like this theory but I somehow have a really hard time seeing Demandred preaching anything good about his hated Lews Therin (Rand). This leads me to believe that Masema isnt Demandred though Masema could be under his control. Demandred seems the type who would try and sully Lews Therin's name by getting someone to preach his coming will commiting the worst atroicites imaginable.
Many people think that Sammael's comment about proxies (to the south of Graendal's palace in Arad Doman) indicates that Sammael knows the identity of Demandred. But this is not at all the case. Later, In To Understand a Message Sammael says to Graendal, "I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding?"
Basically, Sammael does not know the identitiy of Demandred. He might know what Demmy is up to, but he has no idea of who Demmy is? Basically, Sammael's quote about proxies is useless in trying to figure out who Demandred is. Sammael didn't know himself. And Why? Because Demandred is fond of using proxies. This seems to support the old theory that Demandred is just himself.
But the Seanchan are also an important factor, and it could be the Seanchan Sammael was referring to.
The Seanchan were high in activity south of Arad Doman, and as we have seen, they have been heading directly for Illian.
Seanchan is not a small country, it is a complete continent. Plus, the brunt of the Seanchan forces are in two places: Seanchan and the Westlands. So, I think it is quite possible 2 forsaken were involved with the Seanchan.
Semiranath just recently arrived in the westlands. She had to remain in Seanchan and develop herself with Tuon for some time.
Even if Tuon had been at Falme, Semirhage would have had her time severely restricted as Tuon's truth speaker.
So who was to direct the forces in the Westlands? I believe it was Demandred. It makes sense that Semi and Demmy would have at least worked in a loose alliance, especially since they had the pact not to kill each other.
Demandred has a complex role, I think, and I don't think he is posing as anyone in particular. Demandred organized much of the chaos that allowed for the Seanchan invasion to come so quickly. He helped keep the Tarboners and Arad people at war, he helped instigate the Prophet, and he helped in removing Pedron Niall and the Whitecloaks.
This is what I think.
I personally, think that the one forsaken in one country formula just doesn't work with the Seanchan, especially since Semirhage had so many demands placed on her time (for example, all the meetings she was missing).
Plus, Semirhage is not a general (at least I don't think she was). Demandred could fill in the generalling. Seanchan is just too big too wield by one forsaken alone, and I think we will soon see how big a force it really is.
As for the ending of LoC, when Demandred said, "Aren't you pleased" to the Great One, I think he may have been referring to the events that were taking place with the Seanchan invasion, as well as with the chaos that was seeded by Dumai's Wells (Demmy afterall did have a command of many of the asha'man there).
So, what I personally think, is that Demmy is involved with Seanchan, and that is one of the reasons RJ has kept it a mystery so long. He wants to suprise us. And it could be a real surprise, because the Seanchan haven't become that involved in the story yet. But with the Tuon, Mat crossover, I think we will be getting more and more hints.
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Well, this might not be much, but remember that, of late, Masema also seems not to recognize his own name...at least, when Perrin calls him that way, Masema complains that the Prophet doesn't need a name... ok, Masema could just be mad, or it might be that he just thinks if he were to be called with that name too often, he might slip...
To me, this is the best theory on Demandred. It makes sense. If had to place a bet on which Demandred-theory was correct, my money would go on this one!
~~~Nita Almelia~~~
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." - Carl Sagan
Why is every so set on the thought that Demandred is in Randland? There are three other lands that haven't been gone over much at all. Those being Shara, Seachan, and the Land of the Madmen. Now its not likely that Demandred is in LotM, but he could be in Shara or Seachan easily manipulating the rulers there. Hell he could already be amassing a massive army of Shara forces to crush Rand at the Last Battle.
I don't remember very well how this works, but couldn't Masema/Demandred not want to use gateways because it would cause a resonance and they would learn that he could channel.
Am I the shadow of time or is time a figment of my imagination.
Never underestimate human stupidity.
Perrin has smelled Masema, and he is definately mad. Dmndrd is full of hate, but as he has his black cord he aint mad.
And Masema went mad back in tGH, in the camp of the Dragon Reborn.
Balefried
I don't think he's Masema himself, but..... well, Columbo and I are putting something together
Should be good for some laughs
Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.
W.A.S.T.E.
Perrin can tell who a person is by the way they smell, correct? Yes, Masema smelled quite mad but each person would still have the same general smell. In addition Demandred would have to look somewhat like Masema in order to masqurade as him from day to day. It would be risky for him to use the One Power to completly change his apperance i.e. someone could touch him. I don't think Demandred would take that risk. He may have a hand in what he does, compulsion or something along those lines which i tend to lean towards. Personally I don't think we've been intoduced to who Demandred is and if we have it will be someone we would least of all expect.
Since GG wants to hold onto what we have re: Demandred and Masema, then I will only share some with you all.
First Masema is not capable of creating what he has on his own. Masema's role in Shienar ( where everyman is in the army) was to watch a gate. Also some may say he accomplished this in the name of the Dragon reborn, also too big even in the Name of the Dragon.
Second. We see all the signs of a Forsaken present. Mobs, Riots, Murders, burning villages, raping and pillaging etc. etc.
If you recall Tear and Illian when Forsaken where present they showed the same signs that where visible to Lan and Moraine.
The rest will have to wait for GG to share with you.
I also don't believe Masema is Demandred. Is he present? Maybe GG will share with us?
Columbo is on the case!
'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'
If we have been introduced to Demandred in disguise, and i think we have, it must be a character whose inner thoughts have not been revealed by RJ. That is the key to the puzzle. Masema is among the group of characters who fits in the parameters.
There are few others who immediately come to mind; Weiramon, Masema, Dobraine, Taim. I am sure there are others. Masema though seems a pawn or bishop rather than the person moving the pieces. So my vote is that he is not Demandred.
More outer thoughts to come on inner thoughts
Mother's Milk in a Cup! A Theory that makes sense! My faith in humanity has been restored. I can definately see some connection to the Forsaken with the Dragonsworn. After all, evil takes many forms, what better way to hurt Rand's reputation than by doing evil acts in his name? It a sweet idea and I approve. I never really saw Taim as Demandred and this makes more sense in my opinion. As for Masema being Demandred, well, maybe but I doubt it. There would be too many inconsistencies. Demandred would have had to use compulsion on all the Shienarans cause they couldnt talk about the past anymore and it would be impossible (almost) to bluff past anyone who had met Masema without Compulsion (like the ta'veren or Two Rivers girls).
Scorp 
I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.
Demandred is a complex individual.
It may very well be that Demandred is using Masema, but I do not think it is prudent to confine him to Masema. For example, We have positive proof that Demmy is working with the Black Tower, we know that he had several Asha'men in there.
As I mentioned earlier, that quote about proxies isn't very useful. About the only thing it tells us is that Demmy is fond of using proxies, and that Sammael interpreted a certain group that was carving out territory to be under Demandred.
The proxy quote should tell us immediately that Demmy is NOT masema. Demandred may be involved with Masema, currently, but I do not think Masema is his sole domain. As I said earlier, we know that Demmy was also involved with the black Tower.
Additionally, the quote seemed to indicate that the group was carving out territory. The only groups that really fit this are the Seanchan and the Dragonsworn. The Ashamen and the White Cloaks weren't really actively carving out territory.
Sammael was also relatively afraid of Demmy's group (or what he thought was Demmy). Why would Sammael be that afraid of the Dragonsworn? Sammael still had a very strong Illian army, and if he really wanted to, he could have immediately ended the threat of Masema, by assasinating Masema himself.
But the Seanchan are a different story because of damane. Sammael has great reason to fear them. They are not something he can stop by himself, or with his army. Plus, they were headed towards Illian, unlike the Dragonsworn.
For those of you who think that Demandred was supposed to keep an eye on Rand, it could have been militarily. Demmy might not have been near Rand physically, but he could have been watching his troops. Plus, the quote about bumping into Rand, might not apply to Demandred himself, it could apply to Demmy's army, or to one of his proxies.
Overall, I think it is reasonable to suspect Demmy is involved with the Dragonsworn, but I think it is not logical to assume Demmy is Masema, or that he is soley working with the Dragonsworn.
If there was anybody that I think Sammael was referring to in his proxy quote, it was the Seanchan. But it could have been that Sammael was mistaken and misinterpretated what he saw.
And what have we seen lately? Masema was actually meeting with the Seanchan. To me, this seems that Demmy might be influencing both groups.
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Nice having so much feedback on a couple of thoughts.
I agree that Big D is likely NOT Masema, but I don't think he is meddling with the Sanchean.
- Another Forsaken (I can't remember who, damn me!) is already in a high Position in the Sanchean Empire - and i don't think she/he will tolerate another Choosen;
- The Dragonsworn ARE a vital Danger even to Illian - think what a riot and/or civil war will do...
- The Fact that D has spies in the Black Tower doesn't imply that he can't be with the Dragonsworn (Every Forsaken has two or three different points of Focus
but he is also very mad, and there are people all over the place who are abandoning their old ways because Rand has proclaimed himself and they think they should. This doesn't mean Masema is a "friend" of Demmy, and it doesn't mean he isn't.
To discount Matrimony, I had to review the chain of events. sammy's comments were made in The Lord of Chaos, and the Seanchan didn't attack Amadacia until A Crown of Swords. Oh... that was just one book later, and even though it doesn't happen until half-way through that book, chronologically, it could have happened within days of Sammy's statement. So Mat does have a valid point. (and I was trying to find a way to discreadit it, can you ever forgive me?
) As I stated earlier, Sammy's "plans" could have included plans he had with Carridin from the Whitecloaks. The statement doesn't necessarily have to refer to the Seanchan attacking Illian. (Sammy was toast before they could have gotten that far.) So, yes, Matrimony may be on to something there. Seachan is huge. Futhermore, that would put the Seanchan that much closer to the areas Sammy wants to control. He did try to make a pact with Rand stating he wanted the "split" Randland between them, given the southwest prtion of the continent to himself.
OTOH, they already have accomplished generals, so Semirage doesn't necessarily need to have him around to fight her battles. With damane, they are quite the force. And don't forget Liandrin.
Grandeal has already gone to Shara and killed their rulers, plunging that area into chaos, but only in a ploy to make Demmy think she was involved there. I think this discounts Shara as a hiding place for Demmy. And the Land of Madmen is out of the question. Nothing else has happened there, and RJ has said it's possible nothing will happen there.
What we know of Demmy is that he uses proxies, he is willing to gamble, he was suppose to be watching Rand (which Masema couldn't do) and he was a general who knew LTT very well, and could possibly try to predict what and where Rand would do/be next.
Pronounced: "Rand was here"
Masema seems to be too intent on his feelings to be Damandred. He could have been compulsed to be even more intent, he was already a bit crazy for Rand and I don't think that it would take much if anything to make him go as fanatic as he is at the moment. I've been wondering if he was with Masema as a close hand or if he was in with the Whitecloaks. Whitecloaks hate Aes Sedai and I don't think Demandred likes them very much, besides where better to hide than a place where Aes Sedai are hated and Al'Thor feared?
In fact I posted the following Theory to the Post a few weeks ago but it never got posted. I can't figure out why...
Here are my suspicions for Demandred's location and identity.
First it was Demandred's job was to spy on Rand, but he wasn't Taim, how could he have been close to Rand enough to spy. Well, actually we don't know what methods Dem was using to spy on Rand. If Dashiva/Osan'gar was following Rand's day-to-day movement wouldn't it stand to reason that the general would be following his troop movements and his direction of conquest? Why would the DO have two Forsaken watching Rand in day-to-day encounters? Twice the chance of getting caught and no additional utility. There were two because Rand has two main aspects to his life: his personal interactions and his army interactions. I think that Dashiva was watching the personal and Demandred was in charge of monitoring troop movements, etc. He could do that through two main methods. One, the Black Tower soldiers that Rand would call upon to do battle and two…being in charge of Rand's opponents.
This leads into the next piece of evidence.
Second, one of the most important pieces of evidence for the location of Demandred came from Sammael in LoC. Sammael is in Graendal's palace in Arad Domon when this passage comes up:
"You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it."
Let's work through this paragraph one phrase at a time. First of all we know that Graendal is the real ruler in Arad Domon. To the south of her is Falme, Tarabon and the whole west coast of Randland. At the time the only group operating in that sphere is the Seanchan.
Now if Demandred likes using proxies then it isn't likely that he would be in any position of prominence among them but since we do know that the leader of the Return, Suroth, is a DF then we can make a good assumption of who the proxy is.
So that might account for him. Who are the friends Sammael is referring to then? Well it can't mean the Ash'aman because the next thing Sammael thinks is "Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there." Well nothing has happened to direct Rand towards attacking the Black Tower and nothing ever could happen so that obviously isn't it. Rumors about the Seanchan spreading were increasing though and five days before Rand attacked Illian the Seanchan took Ebou Dar. Before that they had captured Amadacia.
Now the logical path for the Seanchan would be to continue their swath along the southern coast right through Illian. Which could be why Sammael demanded that they "steer clear" of him.
This whole paragraph doesn't apply at all to the Black Tower though because the Ash'aman aren't trying to "carve out" a kingdom or anything else. The only group that is doing that is the Seanchan.
It makes sense, actually when you realize that the only major group without a Forsaken presence is the Seanchan. Oh, I know, they have Semhirage now, but up until WH she was in Seandar. It would be strange to assume that no one would snatch up someone as powerful as Suroth when Ishmael died in tDR. That is assuming Ishy was the one controlling her before. Demandred is a general though and he needs an army. His army could keep close tabs on Rand because Rand would be forced to follow him and block his strikes. He also could work through Taim (another proxy) and the Black Tower to keep an eye on troop movement since Rand is training the Ash'aman to be weapons.
Whatta ya think?
Ciel, the Baerlon Maid
doesn't need any titles or smileys
Ciel, there's a few holes you need to fill.
1. The White Cloaks, last we saw them for any meta-activity, were trying to create a kingdom (of course, than Niall was assassinated, soooo....)
2. The Aiel, any group, are a power group with whom we have not seen a Forsaken. We've seen Forsaken NEAR them, but Kadere and his troupe actually met up with Rand, I believe. And Sammael and Graendal only fooled Sevanna, and are not a part of her group.
This doesn't mean nobody is, but the Aiel are typically free of Forsaken domination -- unless one of the very few of whom we don't know are with them (Cyndane, Moghedien currently, Demandred -- and please, I'm not saying they're with them! We just don't have them pinned down anymore or at all).
Then, of course, there's Asmodean. Is he permanently gone? He LIKELY was killed by Balefire, but if he wasn't...well, we know it's possible to come back from death. Whether one needs the intercession of the DO, or the Finns, remains to be seen. He could be a fascinating player -- if he was fried and not balefired.
For instance...*grinning*...wouldn't it be funny if Asmodean, the ultimate musician, found the Song?
Good theory to a point but remember that Masema isnt telling his folks to rob, rape and pillage folks. He has just created an atmosphere where when these things happen all his followers have to say is that the victims were darkfriends and Masema wont punish them. Masema actually has the right idea (if not overzealously). I think this is just a case of mob mentality. Dragonsworn arent under Forsaken control.
The seanchan idea makes the most sense. I agree all the way that Suroth is Demmys pawn and he is using her and her Hellene to create chaos. This explains the "blundering into" sentence too. If he keeps pushing with his army eventually he knows Rand has to fight his proxies. What he cant understand is why it hasnt happened sooner. It explains Sammaels words and reactions as well.
Nay on the Dragonsworn! Yay on the Seanchan. Oh one more thing...Demmy is orchestrating a bunch of stuff...I dont think he has time to hide and act as someone else close to Rand. He is too busy and he can keep an eye on Rand in other ways.
NO! Masema is NOT Demandred! Reasons?
1) Masema is insane. Perrin even smells it.
2) Masema really does revere the Dragon Reborn, more than life itself; that's why he named himself 'the Prophet' in the first place. He's preaching of Rand's greatness. It's not ENTIRELY his fault (ok, so it is, but he doesn't want to wreak havoc) that the Dragonsworn burn houses and rob/attack/kill people.
3) Demandred has too much hate for Lews Therin to say anything good about him.
& there's plenty of other reasons, too. No, Demandred is NOT Masema. Jeesh, even the Taim theory had less holes than this one.
Jahar Narishma... the walking weapon
Forever hating AoC scum 
May my sword remain at the throat of idiots like the AoC
My path is that of evil... evil is my path. Watch my footsteps, do not follow, death is the price
1. The White Cloaks, last we saw them for any meta-activity, were trying to create a kingdom (of course, than Niall was assassinated, soooo....)
Of course while they were trying to build a kingdom they were being led by a known "Lightfriend" (Niall) who was being controlled slightly by a demented enemy of the Dark (Fain). Then Niall's attempts to create a kingdom were ended by the Seanchan led by a know Darkfirend (Suroth). I would thihnk that would cast serious doubt on the Whitecloaks having Forsaken presence. Especially since we only have one Forsaken unaccounted for. Dem has to be with one or the other.
2. The Aiel, any group, are a power group with whom we have not seen a Forsaken. We've seen Forsaken NEAR them, but Kadere and his troupe actually met up with Rand, I believe. And Sammael and Graendal only fooled Sevanna, and are not a part of her group.
This doesn't mean nobody is, but the Aiel are typically free of Forsaken domination -- unless one of the very few of whom we don't know are with them (Cyndane, Moghedien currently, Demandred -- and please, I'm not saying they're with them! We just don't have them pinned down anymore or at all).
Actually the Forsaken have been manipulating the Aiel since tSR. Asmodean was manipulating Couladin, Sammael was pulling Melindrha's (sp?) strings. I'm sure there are others. The problem with the Aiel is that we don't have any DFs high up to help Forsaken position themselves and they have such a rigid society structure it would be suspicious for them to try to enter using Compulsion. Look at how Lanfera and Asmodean had to get in. Even Rand was able to pick up on the guise and he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
The other issue is that when the Forsaken got free the Aiel were not an issue at all. They only became one when Rand entered the waste and now Rand has control of the bulk of them. The only time Sevanna et al were all together they were being manipulated by Sammael and Graendal and then they were scattered. Now there isn't a group of over 20,000 Shaido anywhere. They could have been a power group but now they are just a minor annoyance.
Last time we saw Cyndane she was in the borderlands (I'm pretty sure). I'm not sure about Moggy but it seems Moridin has her and Cyndane running around for him (ie, in Ebou Dar, in Arad Domon...). I think Cyndane will end up in the borderlands but I don't know where Moggy will go.
I just think there is too big a gap in the spread of Forsaken right now and the fact that no one was controlling Suroth and the Return for 5 books is too much to believe.
Then, of course, there's Asmodean. Is he permanently gone? He LIKELY was killed by Balefire, but if he wasn't...well, we know it's possible to come back from death. Whether one needs the intercession of the DO, or the Finns, remains to be seen. He could be a fascinating player -- if he was fried and not balefired.
For instance...*grinning*...wouldn't it be funny if Asmodean, the ultimate musician, found the Song?
I keep thinking that the only reason Asmodean wasn't resurrected and mindtrapped is because someone balefired him. It would be funny to have him show up again. But then, that would mean RJ *still* hasn't killed any major characters associated with the Light.
Asmodean would know the Song, wouldn't he? I mean the Song was just the songs they sung in the AoL...
Ciel, the Baerlon Maid
doesn't need any titles or smileys
When disregarding the whitecloaks as a possibility you failed to question the questioners. Remember them. They are apart of the Whitecloaks. If I where a forsaken hiding in the Whitecloaks gang I would definatley use the guise of a questioner. No one questions a questioners. Remember when Geofram Bornhald was sent to Falme. On his way he ran into the questioners murdering entire villages. To make a long story short, just before Geofram dies in battle he sends Child Byar to return to Niall with a letter Re; The questioners doings in Tarabon and Almoth Plain. Geofram seems to think that Niall has no knowledge of the questioners purpose and seems to think it of grave importance that Niall knows ASAP. Remember Carridon ( questioner ). You can hide in the Questioners gang because no one dares pay any attention to them for fear of being put to the question.
Columbo is on the case!
'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'
Masema never wants anyone to use the One Power around himbecause itmight resonate and give aclue to his identity. This would only be if there was a Masemadred.
Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je 
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Generally a good guy
I was thinking that too. I was re-reading LOC and I saw that passage in Threads Woven of Shadow. I had to look up "Proxy" but when I did I was like "DUH!" If Masema isnt Demandred, then I don't know who is.
When disregarding the whitecloaks as a possibility you failed to question the questioners. Remember them. They are apart of the Whitecloaks. If I where a forsaken hiding in the Whitecloaks gang I would definatley use the guise of a questioner. No one questions a questioners. Remember when Geofram Bornhald was sent to Falme. On his way he ran into the questioners murdering entire villages. To make a long story short, just before Geofram dies in battle he sends Child Byar to return to Niall with a letter Re; The questioners doings in Tarabon and Almoth Plain. Geofram seems to think that Niall has no knowledge of the questioners purpose and seems to think it of grave importance that Niall knows ASAP. Remember Carridon ( questioner ). You can hide in the Questioners gang because no one dares pay any attention to them for fear of being put to the question. I have wondered if anyone was pulling Whitecloak strings. Especially the Questioners. I have one thing against the possibility though. Perhaps you can find a argument back.
The most prominent DF Questioner is (or was) Jaichim Carridin. He was in charge of the Questioners at Falme and has been one of two Questioners we really know about. He was originally in the service of Ishmael from tGH on. He disappeared after Falme until we see him again in Ebou Dar where he is working for Sammael trying to find the
cache of
*'angreal. Next we see him he is back under Ishmael/Moridin's fist and is soon after killed off.
Since we can account for the Questioner's actions at Falme to Ishmael and Carridin's actions at Ebou Dar to Sammael and his final death to Moridin then he can not be Demandred's proxy.
Though there were initial beliefs that perhaps Einor Saren could have been Demandred but it is more doubtful when he reappears again after that one scene where he introduced as Carridin's second-in-command 4 books later. He is back from Falme and remaining at the Fortress of Light. Though it is difficult to ascertain his loyalties from the conversation with Morgase, his later conversation with Asunawa shows him to be just another zealous Questioner.
Asunawa is also not a DF. We have had his PoV once and seen him in conversations again and again. He is not a DF but a somewhat sadisticly overzealous Questioner. He also doesn't seem to be under anyone else's control. I could find no evidence supporting it.
Is there anything you could find that might suggest Demandred is among the Questioners?
Ciel, the Baerlon Maid
doesn't need any titles or smileys
Graendal's comment about "blundering" could easily mean that the Asha'man loyal to Taim (that is, under Demandred's influence) are blundering about the country looking for Rand.
I think this theory has been raised before, especially in regards to the "advisor" Masema is known to have and has not yet been seen. But being old does not invalidate it; I like the idea. Of course, I'm also quietly rooting for Norrydred, but the two theories are not necessarily contradictory...
I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike
this theory is as old as jain farstrider! as old as reanna! would somebody please come up with something different?
I just hada thought about the whole masemadred thing
In Winters Heart Just before the Shaido kidnap Faile they learn that Masema has had secret dealings with the Seanchan
Now someone mentioned the whole supposed tryst between semhirage and demandred in TFOH I believe this is still in effect for a couple reasons
1) Jordan has tried to make it appear that Masemas dealings with the Seanchan are all about his hatred of the one power but thats just to obvious
2) In WH we also learn that Semhirage is Tuons Advisor or something
3) Jordan has made it abundantly clear that Masema is completely insane these days......and so is Demandred. We know for sure that Masema is nuts thanks to Perrins wolf senses but in TGH when perrins wolf sense first comes in handy It never mentions any Psychotic scent about Masema
4) When Nynaeve and Elayne meet Uno in Ghealdan Uno and the other Shienarans are totally freaked out about how insane Masema has become and about how much hes changed in such a short time
Iforget who said it but somewhere in TFOH (hmmmm strange that it would be in the same book as the tryst) someone mentions that Masema usedto be a drinker, Gambler, and liked his women......I find it hard to believe that the man could change that much so quickly
So to conclude I believe that Masema was disposed of by Demandred shortly after Masema sets out to herald the Dragons coming and that the quickness of the seanchan return to Randland may have been aided by information Demandred(Masema) has been giving to semhirage
Anyway maybe Im totally off the wall here but I think Its definitely plausible
Ok, i'm trying to figure out that if Taim is Demandred, why the DO would place two Forsaken in the Black Tower. We know for a fact that Demandred is involved in the BT in some way, because of his orders to the Bad Ashaman. But Osan'gar is also in the Black Tower, pretending to be Coral Dashiva. I think that mabey Osan'gar's job was to keep tabs on Rand, seeing as he was his bodyguard, and Demandred's job to turn the Ashaman against Rand. Taim seemed pretty determined that Rand have at least one Ashaman bodyguard. Now Taim was suprised when Rand picked out Dashiva, but I think he might have been suprised because it was who Taim himself was going to suggest. I know this is kind of off the wall, and probably has a lot of holes in it, but it is the only explanation I can come up with so far.
After all, it wouldn't have been from the taint. The leading theory on why Ishy went bonkers is because he was closer to the world -- and I think Demmy was buried more deeply.
'Nother point -- people can and do change that fast. Masema's case is a classic example of a "religious conversion," which happens more than you might think. In Masema's case, however, it's fairly clear that the conversion strained his mind a bit, and Demandred made use of that.
Or -- HERE'S a crazy notion -- maybe Demandred CAUSED Masema to go mad, so as to make things all the more chaotic . . .
I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike
I think Demandred compulsing Masema is more likely than him posing as Masema.Either is more likely than Demandred as Taim.Taim need not be any of the Forsaken.It has often been remarked tha RJ likes to make allegorical references to other literary figures, Rand notably as an Arthurian type,and often as a Christ figure.
Hold with the Christ-figure for a moment.<keeping in mind this has been commented on earlier,wish I knew who it was so I could credit them here> Rand has been referenced as a Christ figure often enough,for us to make a few assumptions.Likely Taim is merely his Judas.Directly posing as Taim does not fit Demandred's style,again he likes to use proxies.
Using Masema as a proxie fits his style and location.
Someone said Ishamael was crazy from being around for the 3k years, from what i gather Ish went insane from his use of the true power. The forsaken comment about how dangerous the true power is and the price is much more then using the one power and should only be used when needed yet Ish uses the true power almost all the time not bothering with the one power at all. I also believe that Masema's craziness is the result of being a fanatic. I think the most likely place for Dem to be is with the questioners. Keep in mind RJ said in an interview that by WH we should know where all the forsaken are. So dem is somewhere and the clues have been given to us. But i see 2 that contradict themselves, one Sammaels belief he is to the south, and the other Mesaana's belief that if the great hold in tear was not trapped Demandred would have had his angreal. There has to be a reason Dem would have access to the great hold. At this point i have to lean towards the white cloaks being his hiding place. maybe even the questioner who showed up right after pedron nialls death.
yes, i think ur right demandred is probably involved with the dragonsworn, but as for being masema, i doubt it because when he talks to perrin he talks of rand as "the light made flesh" and i sincerely doubt that demandred would ever say something like that of rand. But i believe that he probably is using compulsion on him.
*0*Nynaeve*0*
Myself, I can see Masema being a proxy of Demandred's but not the man himself. When we initially met Masema he kept to himself and didn't like really anyone. He seemed to not care about anything as well. Then he becomes the Prophet. There's time inbetween Rand's going to Tear, then the Waste and Masema's reappearance as the Prophet for Dem to get his hands on him unknowingly to the Shienarian. Masema suddenly has a concern?
Well, maybe it is just the realization of the Last Battle that has a burr under Masema's saddle. Still, I'm thinking compulsion could mess with someone's sanity if the person is made to do something against his normal wishes or desires. It goes along with Dem supposedly messing with things in the south, as well as leaving him free to put his hands into other events.
I like this theory a lot, it brings up a lot of intresting possabilites. However All evidence points towards Demmy controling Mesema(I know its wrong sp deal with it) and not acctually being him. For one Mesema has been in the Books since The Great Hunt and i dought that Demmy became him that early on in the series we didn't even know about Demmy then. Second Mesema is insane and Demmy is not. So that leaves the possiablity that Demmy is controling Mesema but not acctualy him.
P.S. I wonder wht he'd think about being called Demmy
Jason Gaidin
Knight of the Old Code
Defender of the Realm
well at least u dont believe that taim is.
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penguins will come into storyline i just kno it
I think that Demandred and his "friends" are some of the top Asha'man
i agree that demandred is something to do with the prophet, the wise ones dream also adds to it. they say that perrin must kill him because he means harm to rand. demandred will do anything to kill lews therin. it may also explain his hatred of the Power. if he can convince everyone he hates the One Power and that he will never let it touch him he knows that there is no chance of anyone acidentally channeling something at him and damaging his disguise or perhaps sensing his own weavings.
Quite simply; Aram is clearly Compelled. In a way similar to what Verin does to Elza, he comes to the conclusion "Perrin must die" for a reason twisted to his own logic.
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Could this explain Graendal's exclamation?