I have been reading theories regarding Ta’veren (and Dark Ta'veren) and I notice that there is a big misconception about them. Everyone seems to feel that Ta’veren are free to do whatever they want, that the pattern will just whip up around them and alter itself for the Ta’veren; anything to help them accomplish their goals. I believe that many of us are harboring misconceptions about the power that Ta’veren have, both over the world around them and their own lives.
In The Great Hunt Loial has this to say about being Ta’veren:
”For a time, the wheel will bend the pattern around you three, whatever you do. And whatever you do is more likely to be chosen by the wheel than by you. Ta'veren pull history along behind them and shape the pattern just by being, but the wheel weaves Ta'veren on a tighter line than other men. Wherever you go, whatever you do, until the wheel chooses otherwise you will-"
He was then cut off by Mat, but I think he was about to say that ‘until the wheel chooses otherwise you will have very little choice in what you do.’
I guess you could call it Robert Jordan’s version of fate, but most of the paths followed by a Ta’veren through life are not determined by the Ta’veren himself. Instead, I believe that they are entirely determined by the wheel.
When you think of our three Ta’veren at work, you generally think of the obvious scenes like negotiations with the Sea Folk, or when Rand is able make impossible political situations work (for instance, having Aes Sedai kneel to him to swear fealty).
However, I think that there are just as many scenes where the Ta’veren seem to be forced into some situation by the wheel itself. Scenes such as when Rand tries to leave Fal Dara because the he doesn’t want to meet the Amyrlin Seat, or all of the things that happen to keep Mat in Ebou Dar until Tuon arrives. Even Perrin goes through this multiple times; all of the different things that occurred which led to Perrin meeting Elyas and learning of his ‘wolf senses’ are good examples of what happens to a person’s life when he/she is a Ta’veren. The wheel and the pattern force them on a set course in order to make sure that it’s goals are accomplished. I think that in some ways this ties in to Min’s viewings; she says that if she knows what a viewing means, it WILL come true. This suggests to me that the pattern itself already knows what is going to happen, and nothing can change that once it is set on course.
I think that the wheel is pushing them and guiding them in a very strict line in order to achieve its goals, and every other consideration is secondary. What the wheel wants, it will get. I used to think that the wheel released Ta’veren so that they could correct errors in the pattern by letting the pattern reweave itself around them correctly. I now think that if there is a problem in the pattern, the wheel releases a Ta’veren, and weaves the pattern around them so that they have no choice but to go and fix what ever the wheel needs fixed in the pattern. These two points of view may not seem all that different, but in the first version, aTa’veren would have some power to determine his own actions, and this could jeopardize the entire nature of the universe.
Think of it this way. The wheel needs to move to the next age, but in the next age the Wheel will likely want some things about the world to be different. It seems to be leading the Aiel out the wastes, for instance, and perhaps the geographic make-up of the waste will change so that it is habitable again. It seems safe to assume that Saidin will stay clean, so there will be male Aes Sedai again. The ways may be cleansed (or destroyed), wolf-siblings may become common again, the Seanchan may rejoin the rest of the folks in Randland, and so on, and so on. So the Wheel releases Ta’veren in order to accomplish these tasks, and it reweaves the pattern around them so that everything that happens is moving them to these tasks or preparing them to accomplish them.
Thus, if Mat does wind up betraying Rand (as some theorize), then this action must lead to some sort of consequence that will be helpful to Rand in the long run. The pattern would not let Mat do it unless it needed this to happen in order to help one or the both of them achieve the Wheel’s goals.
I think the number of things that the individual MUST do, or MUST accomplish determines the strength of the Ta’veren. In the case of Rand, he is the strongest Ta’veren ever because of the enormous number of tasks that the Wheel has set aside for the Dragon Reborn to accomplish.
Some of us have made mention that some of the other characters show ta’veren like abilities. There is even the thee passage where Egwene is told that she could almost be a Ta’veren. I think this is because the wheel, in order to control the Ta’veren uses those that are very close to, or who have an influence over the Ta’veren. In fact it would use them much more than someone whom was a stranger. I we will all agree that Egwene and the mini tower are going to end up helping Rand. If the wheel did not make sure that Egewene did it, then Rand may fail. Using people in this manner leads to the 2cd point.
It was said that Hawkwing was considered to be such a strong Ta’veren that you could feel the pattern changing around you when he was near. I know everyone is going to ask how I can explain how Ishamael managed to have so much influence over Hawkwing. I can give you 2 possible answers:
1. Hawkwing had already accomplished his task(s) for the pattern and was effectively no long Ta’veren at the end. I don’t think this is correct.
2. It is possible (and this is what I actually think happened) that the pattern used Ishmael to achieve it’s own end. If Ishmael was close to Halkwing then it is entirely possible that the pattern used Ishmael to cause the Hawkwing family to leave Randland and establish Seanchan. If the Seanchan were to ally with Rand (and most of us think they will), they would be a great help to him. If Ishmael hadn’t sent them across the ocean, they would be soft and weak like the rest of the continent. They are going to help Rand, and it is all because of Ishmael.
In fact if you think about it, Ishmael started this whole thing by driving the Ta’veren to the Eye of the World. Moiraine wanted to go to Tar Valon, but then decided to take them to the Eye of the World because of the messages that Ishmael allowed the maiden of the spear and Jain Farstrider to escape with. That is what made Moiraine decide to take the three Ta’veren there. However, if this decision would have gotten the Dragon Reborn killed, would the wheel have allowed it? No. It wanted them there and it used Ishmael to drive them there.
Here is a perfect example of Ta’veren working. In chapter 31 of The Great Hunt. Rand keeps getting invitations from various noble houses. He does not want them. He keeps getting invitations from higher and higher ranking houses. Rand burns all the invitations until he gets the invitation from Lord Barthanes; for some reason, he keeps this one. Much later the party needs a way into the Barthanes residence, and to everyone’s surprise they discover that Rand is carrying a party invitation in his pocket. Verin says, ”the wheel of time weaves us all into the pattern as it wills, but sometimes it provides what we need before we know we need it.”
And in TDR, at the beginning of Chap 4, Perrin is having a conversation with Ishmael about giving up his axe and just going back to being a blacksmith. Ishmael tells Perrin that he is a blacksmith and he wasn’t made for the axe.
Perrin replies, “I am Ta’veren” and Ishmael’s smile becomes a grimace.
I close this theory with what is perhaps my favorite quote about this matter. It comes from TDR, chapter 2:
“All of us, all our lives effect the lives of others, Min. As the wheel of time weaves us into the pattern, the life-threads of each of us pulls and tugs at the life threads around us. Ta’veren are the same only much, much more so. They tug at the whole pattern - for a time at least – forcing it to shape around them. The closer you are to them, the more you are affected personally. It is said that if you were in the same room as Arthur Hawkwing, you could feel the pattern rearranging itself. I don’t know how true that was but I’ve read that it was. But it doesn’t only work one way. Ta’veren themselves are woven to a tighter line than the rest of us, with fewer choices.”
Perrin grimaces and thinks “bloody few of the ones that matter.”
Lauriana Sedai says: Sounds good to me. Let's see what the 'masses' have to say about this...
Comments
You seem to have covered this pretty comprehensively, but I would say one thing and that is just how aware is the wheel of time? Seems to me like you're saying that it knows what it wants people to do and makes them do it. I always had the impression the wheel just sort of existed, the fabric of reality or some such, with no particular aim or consciousness. Can't give you any exact quotes but I'm sure it's been said that the wheel is neither good nor evil and thus doesn't take sides. Since we've seen a world where the DO won (in TGH) that would suggest the wheel doesn't (or at least can't) always ensure events turn out the same way, another example might be if (and I accept Ishy may have been lying) the Dragon ever did serve the DO. I suspect more that Ta'veren, since they seem to have a greater 'presence' in the pattern, are more suseptable to the overall pull of the wheel turning, and so get caught up in events, just as those around them are pulled towards the Ta'veren.
So, in conclusion (sorry, i've started to ramble a bit): Yes I agree that around Ta'veren the pattern distorts in order to allow them to follow the overall pull of the pattern in making events go the right way to ensure the wheel will continue to turn, but I don't think this is under the control of a conscious design, unless it is that of the Creator.
P.S. To those of you who I'm sure will write something along the lines of "But this isn't a real theory, EVERYONE knows this already, it's SO obvious, why are the admins wasting our time etc, etc..."(since there always seem to be some of you) just don't bother.
"Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport" 
Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation
Rule Britannia
"Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge"
"P.S. To those of you who I'm sure will write something along the lines of "But this isn't a real theory, EVERYONE knows this already, it's SO obvious, why are the admins wasting our time etc, etc..."(since there always seem to be some of you) just don't bother."
Thank you!!! We admins don't write the theories, yet we somehow take the blame when people are unhappy with them. The last book has been out for so long that most of the theories that are truly unique (or bizarre) have long since been posted (and sometimes reposted). I think we should thank the people who bother to compile these theories that are more philisophical in nature, anyway. This kind of theory can really inspire a lot of blackboard discussion, and it's not all going to be "Taim is Demandred" "No he's not!" back and forth.
And not everything is 'obvious' to everyone, so why don't we try to act like a community and be a little nicer to each other? OK, OK *getting off soap-box* My work here is done.
Nice job, borderlander!
The Blonde Domani
Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin
God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire
No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.
I agree that there are some things a Ta'veren MUST do. But I also think it's a kind of give/take relationship. The Ta'veren are bound to the Wheel and have to do certain things but the Wheel also follows what a Ta'veren does sometimes. I don't think I am explaining myself right. I think of it kinda like the Force in Star Wars. Jedi are kinda like Ta'veren. This I think sums up my idea of the Wheel/Ta'veren relationship...
Luke - "You mean it controls your actions?"
Obiwan - "Partially, but it also obeys your commands."
So now that I have proven to you all what a nerd I am, I'll leave you with that. Thank you.
"The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society." ~Mark Twain
"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." ~Aristotle
Anyone who DOESN'T have at least a few lines of Star Wars memorized is a nerd.

The Blonde Domani
Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin
God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire
No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.
Taveren are pulled along by the pattern. Correct. Taveren can go against the pull of the pattern. Correct. If you will recall Mat's meeting with the Finns. Mat says " Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean?" Finns respond " You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fullfilled".
It seems that Mat had the ability to make the wrong choice and thus become vulnerable or unprotected. I believe this is also known to Ishmael and that is why he tried to turn Rand early in the series to the darkside. Ishmael is aware of the possibility of turning Rand and using him for something other than what he was created to do.
Also I believe that Ishmael is also very strongly Taveren. and that might explain the Hawkwing thing. I don't have the qoute in front of me at the moment that suggests this. Sorry.
Columbo is on the case!
'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'
What about those of us who have EVERY line memorized?
"The clothes make the man. Naked people have little to no influence in society." ~Mark Twain
"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." ~Aristotle
I was going to say that this is a rediculous and anyone whos read the books should know all this, but after seeing some of the recent posts apparently there are many of you out there who have a serious lack when it comes to reading comprehension. This is stated so many times throughout the books its not even funny hence the post goes on and on and on with info. So I hope this helped some of you out there to understand the pattern weave better (like its hard) because there really is no theory here, rather a compilation of facts on the ta'veren/pattern relationship.
It is nice to see a theory not based on speculation.
Scorp 
I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.
I think what's TRULY lame is for you to insult our intelligence when you can't even spell. Why do you come to the theory post is our stupidity offends you? Do you just like to be ticked off at something?
Quit picking on the theorists; if you want to mock someone, why don't you go play in front of a mirror?
Egwene the Skank Sedai
Defender of the Theory Post


Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal


Children of the Light are the KKK
My cat's breath smells like cat food!-Ralph Wiggum
How does this theory jive with a human's free will? If humans have no control over their destinies, then they have no resposibility for their actions. I.E. the devil, or the Wheel, made me do it. If that were the case, you cannot fault Padan Fain for being an evil psychopath, because the Wheel made all his decisions for him. Same thing goes for Rand, Mat, Perrin, Demandred, Ishamel, Lanfear, Sammael, etc, etc, etc.
However, we do hold people responsible for their actions precisely because we have free will. A person's choices are what make him/her an evil person.
In addition, if the Wheel was the one making all the choices, then you could not say it was neutral, since it has a goal/objective. We know (from the outsie looking in) that the good guys will win, so you could say the wheel was good. On the other hand, the wheel allows evil acts to happen when it could prevent them, so it could be considered evil. It boils down to the same question that if there is a just, and omnipotent God, why do bad things happen to good people.
Of course what I just said does not go to the validity of the theory, only to the validity of the WOT as a model of our own universe. Good theory
AOBtD 
It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
Ummmm....is Padan Fain t'avern? Is everyone in wotland? Then your rationale isn't applicable. And even t'avern have some degree of choice. Their choices are just much more limited, because the Wheel will try to force them down the path it wants. Hence the comment the Finn made to Mat, quoted in the theory that shows he could choose not to go to Rhuidan. He would just die for making that choice. As has been stated, this was more an explanation of relevant passages than a theory, but still very well done. Maybe it belongs more in the FAQ than the theory post.
Da Mook

"You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are." LiterateDog to me, of course
"snoop elsewhere" -Pevara
I feel that Ishmael was always ta'varen. A strong one, too. I mean, how do you become 'partially trapped' when 100 of the strongest male AS put locks of cuendillar around you to bind you outside of the pattern???? It just doesnt happen.
BTW, I have a new favorite Screen name of ALL TIME: Egwene the Skank.
LMAO!
Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.
W.A.S.T.E.
Good theory / fact. Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated, so the rest of the world can understand. Your theory sounded very familiar to me and an argument I had with the various bible thumpers in college. Especially the part about Ishy and Hawkwing. This is similar to Jesus and Judas. My argument was that Christ needed Judas in order to die and be resurrected. At the time I went as far as to say that Christianity really need to give Judas one big THANK YOU for betraying Jesus. A bit extreme, yes, but I think a valid point. Like the Wheel of Time and the "threads" or "weaves" - Judas was Ta'veren for one specific reason at one specific point in the "pattern": To betray Jesus. Hawkwing/Rand are like Jesus - Big Time Ta'veren, which the "Pattern" had plans for, and needed to have all the right elements in place in order to achieve a specific end result (i.e. 1 case beer + 1 nubile coed = unbelievable headache and a sudden engagement!

)
That's my take on this, hope it didn't piss to many people off!
P.S. If you extend this argument about serving the wheel, you will have the exact same argument about predestiny vs. free will, which is the core argument between Christianity and the older religions (i.e. Greeks and Romans).
this theory makes sense to a point. Im surprised you didnt finish your theory up with the most convincing argument you could make to support your point. The Great Lord wants to break the Wheel, not just defeat Rand. Why would he want to break the Wheel? Because the Wheel always spins out the same set of circumstances and the Great Lord cannot assure victory since in another Age it will come back to bite him.
I give you a different argument to support choices by Ta'veren, tho. Remember in TGH, that Rand and Hurin traverse a 'world in which the Trollocs won the great war'. Remember there are variations or shades of the world that you can get to. These are worlds where the Ta'veren have made other choices and the world shows the result...to me this means Ta'veren CAN make choices that affect the world. The Wheel just assures that they get another chance in the next Age (remember Ishy saying to Rand in the very first prologue that Ive faced you and won a thousand times). The Wheel sets the boundaries - more of a template - but its not sentient and its neutral.
Kudos to the Green Gaidin! Ive finally found someone who cant stand Egwene as much as me! I personally hope her headaches become so harsh she resigns as Amyrlin and retreats to a farm in the first chapter of the next book and is never heard from again.
This is one of the most confusing aspects about the series for me. When you get right down to it, do the characters have free will? On the surface I would have to say of course, but the problem comes in later. How can you have free will in a world of prophecy and fortelling? If someone knows what actions are going to happen, can those actions still be yours. The best example of this is Min's viewings when she sees that Logain is going to become a powerful individual she says something along the lines of "If Logain were crawling on the ground and seemed about to expel his last breath she would bet all that she had on his miraculous recovery." So Logain is going to live and become powerful there is no doubt about this. What would happen if Min decided to kill him on the spot? Would something prevent this from happening a seeming accident? If this is the case I would argue that Min's free will is limited. A hundred other examples could be made. What about the prophecies of the dragon? Could Rand turn away from his destiny or would forces beyond his control always force him to accept the mantle. Fortelling: during the breaking of the world fortellings guide certain actions that have later become pivotal in the series. If these Aes Sedai know that the dragon is going to be reborn in the future to wield callandor, this is hinted at but not said outright, and callandor's being wielded is one of the principal signs of Rand's acendency, what of free will? Ishmael in his discussions with Rand both paradoxically denies and affirms Rand's right to free will. He suggests to him that all the events of the past that have lead to his birth on the slopes of dragonmount were guided were pre-ordained at the same time he tells him that he has choices kneel, become a puppet or die yes but still choices, Rand of course seems to have picked a fourth option. Sorry I know that I have started to ramble but I still haven't found the answer to whether or not the "pattern" or fate or whatever makes the choice or the characters do. Any thoughts?
A book is a mirror when a monkey looks in no apostle can look out
Es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo que estar en su senda
Egwene, I am forced to assume from your obvious offense at my post that you found the information in this "theory" new and quite informative. Therefore, I must also assume that you are either stupid or are one of those evil 'skimmer.' You are most likely a lower intellectual as you have taken to cheap insults and frankly, idiotic statements. As to me insulting myself in the mirror that is only for practice, how else could I get so good?, and I will continue to do so with or without your permission. As for my spelling, if i mess up its because i do not type as fast as I think, however in sixth grade i came in second in my class spelling bee. So There.

Any comments I make are made and are all in the interest in forming new brain cells in the readers. It is obvious that many people who read/send in these theorys are quite lacking upstairs and these theories are shameful. Have you read them? My comments have been justified by other posts if you care to read down the list. I am, blessfully, not the only person with commen sense who comes to this site. For others who have read this sorry for wasting your time. If you want it back, go ask the Creator.
Scorp 
I faithfully serve the Hand of the Light which Holds the Pen of Truth and seek out those theories which must be cast down.
I am not a good speller, and my theroy only is correct bcause it took a friend a month to proof read and edit. (*Wink) Anyway, don't jump on my spelling I know am bad at it. So, That said... This was just the first half of a bigger theroy about the Creator actually being the wheel or in control of the wheel. The comment that everyone is thinking about the wheel being nuetral was said by Moiraine. By I say that in order for the wheel to repeat ages, and have a most things always be the same, but to have them all be slightly diffrent, would require an actuall intelligence. No one in the books has ever said that the wheel does not. In fact many quotes seem to take it for granted the the wheel has a will, a plan, and therefore must have an intelligence. I submit the creator is the wheel, but that the creator is not as "GOOD" as all goodness. The dragon is the Creator's champion, but not all the Rand has done has been that "good". Also, as a ta'veran he is a servent to the wheel. So how can he serve the wheel and the creator at the same time without a conflict if the Creator is not the wheel. We have not seen the creator take any dirrect intervention to stop the DO, but we have seen the wheel and the Ta'veren do alot to stop him/her/it. also think of it this way. If the creator created everything, and the creates the "threads" it weaves. (birth, breaking the world) then doesn't that also make the wheel the creator? How could the creator create anything if the wheel is in charge of it all. I created this theroy as the first part of a more compleate theroy on the Creator = the wheel. I am currios to here your thoughts. Hopefully enough of you read this to give me some input as a start this new theroy.
Last thought
Dragon is Ta'veren
Ta'veren fixs (saves) the pattren for the wheel
The pattren is the world.
The Dragon is the champion of the creator.
The dragon saves the world for the Creator (defeats the DO)
The Dragon is able to do both with no conflicts.
Doesn't that make the Creator the Wheel??
BORDERLANDER
TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer
I just reread that post and that was bad english even for me. I guess I was typing WAY to fast.
Sorry...
Well if you have input on the wheel being or not being the creator let me know. Sorry about that.
YOUR SPELLING SUCKS BORDERLANDER!!! BOOOO!!! BOOOO!!!
I just wanted to be the first one to flame me.
BORDERLANDER
TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer
then why do people always talk of them as separate things, I seem to remember Verin, when talking about the worlds accessable by portal stone, saying that the one constant in all of them is the wheel, the creator, and the dark one. That suggests the wheel and the creator, although they may well be linked, are not the same. I agree that Rand likely couldn't serve both the wheel's and the creator's aims, but this would seem to me to reinforce the idea that the wheel isn't an intelligence, but rather a sort of cosmic 'machine', which causes ta'veren to serve it in a certain way more by 'automatic' or by its nature rather than because it thinks.
Also, the creator doesn't intervene, but you're saying the wheel does, which doesn't seem to square.
P.S. since some form of insult seems to be becoming obligatory in any post, most people who claim someone else is lacking in intelligence do so only because they can't come up with any real way to dismiss their arguments. I support Egwene the Skank on this, if you can't say anything intelligent and useful when discussing a theory, don't say anything at all
"Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport" 
Talking to myself is the only way to guarantee an intelligent conversation
Rule Britannia
"Live, at Peterhouse College Cambridge"
in being the Creator if you bind yourself as the wheel is bound. Im more inclined to believe the Wheel is the "playing field" between the Great Lord and the Creator. Its the template and rules that they must work within. Think of two fellows playing a game of sentient chess where the pieces think for selves...a bishop is still a bishop whether he wants to be or not...he can move any of four directions from a square on the board...yet he is confined to move diagonally. I liken this to Ta'Veren and the Wheel. The Wheel is the chessboard and its rules for the pieces, but the pieces make choices of direction. Now consider the Creator and Great Lord playing a thousand separate games at the same time and that explains the worlds in the portal stones (sometimes Ishy wins and such). The pieces are still constrained by their basic rules (like Ta'Veren and prophecy) but they can still make choices which will be their downfall if they arent careful. Anyway, my original point was that the Wheel is not the Creator...this also explains why the Great Lord wants to break the Wheel...the Wheel are the rules of their game and what better way to win for all time than to break the rules?
Just my take!
Thrasha
Yeah, Egwene acts like a total bi... well, you know
I know that Jordan often uses amusing comparisons and thoughts to make us see how wrong our thoughts can be. For example: Rand, Mat and Perrin always think to themselves "I wish (insert name of one of other 2 ta'varen here) was here. He understood women." And then we see that same thought from one of the others 10 pages later. Funny? Yes.
What gets me, though, is how Egwene can berate the men for "Thinking with the hair on their chests", then turn around and act EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Well, sans the hairy chest (hopefully lol).
Strangley enough, my girlfriend came up as Egwene on the Personality test! We get along great! How weird is that! lol!
How's THAT for off topic?
Gingers: disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.
W.A.S.T.E.
GG and I agree on something! Who'd a thought?
"Egwene the Skank" IS the best name on here.
The theory? Oh, I don't know. It sounds okay; it's something I haven't paid too much attention to. All I have to add about Ishamael is I'm betting he's been ta'veren at some points, I'm just not sure about always. For instance, his battle over Falme with Rand pretty much meant he couldn't be ta'veren at that point. Or shouldn't, at least. He had so many other advantages over Rand, but...the Weave NEEDED Rand to be declared. Since that meant Ishy sorta had to lose, then he likely wasn't ta'veren at that time. But that's just a bit of messin' around.
I'm not sure where to find the qoute but it is something from EOTW. It s Ishy speaking with Rand and he mentions how they are atraced to each other no matter what they try. I wish I could find the actual qoute. The passage in question is why I thought Ishy suggested that he also was strongly Taveren. If anyone is aware of where to find passage let me know as i've lost the info.
Columbo is on the case!
'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'
So true! RJ does a great job of being in character and staying there when he gives you POVs. I always get a big chuckle, like you, when Rand, Perrin, or Mat always lament not having one of the others around to handle women! I found Egwene amusing at first, but she even gets bossy and superior with her friends and that drives me nuts! Granted she is in the most powerful position in the world and she is...18 years old? You would think she would remember some of her humility after being with the Aiel but no such luck! Anyway, nice off-topic!
I have always percived Ta'verenness as an energy type thing acting upon the person that it is connected too. In this sense Ishy's Ta'verenness could have been negated by Rands in TGH. But seeing as how Ishy had such an advantage over Rand, why didn't he kill him if their Ta'verenness negated each other? Well Rand's Ta'verenness is stronger. We have no real inclination about how strong, but stronger then Ishy's, much stronger, more then likely. If Ta'verennes is an energy, then some of Rand's would have still existed after negating Ishy's which is why Rand won. This may or may not prove Ishy was/is a Ta'vren even in TGH but it might spark some minds.
I have always percived Ta'verenness as an energy type thing acting upon the person that it is connected too. In this sense Ishy's Ta'verenness could have been negated by Rands in TGH. But seeing as how Ishy had such an advantage over Rand, why didn't he kill him if their Ta'verenness negated each other? Well Rand's Ta'verenness is stronger. We have no real inclination about how strong, but stronger then Ishy's, much stronger, more then likely. If Ta'verennes is an energy, then some of Rand's would have still existed after negating Ishy's which is why Rand won. This may or may not prove Ishy was/is a Ta'vren even in TGH but it might spark some minds.
I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only one who is all for posting positive blackboard comments.

We should all get along here- we're all obviously variations on the same kind of nerd personality-type, seeing as how we all found our way to WoTmania...
You've inspired a good deal of discussion with this, borderlander; don't let the negative ninnies keep you down. Don't worry about your spelling, either...
Egwene the Skank Sedai
Defender of the Theory Post


Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal


Children of the Light are the KKK
My cat's breath smells like cat food!-Ralph Wiggum
I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only one who is all for posting positive blackboard comments.

We should all get along here- we're all obviously variations on the same kind of nerd personality-type, seeing as how we all found our way to WoTmania...
You've inspired a good deal of discussion with this, borderlander; don't let the negative ninnies keep you down. Don't worry about your spelling, either...
Egwene the Skank Sedai
Defender of the Theory Post


Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal


Children of the Light are the KKK
My cat's breath smells like cat food!-Ralph Wiggum
Er, um, sorry.
Egwene the Skank Sedai
Defender of the Theory Post


Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal


Children of the Light are the KKK
My cat's breath smells like cat food!-Ralph Wiggum
In TSR, Perrin also commented that he believes Ta'veren are drawn to one another. This makes further sense with Min's viewing of the fireflies. When the 3 Emond Fielder's work together, they're stronger.
This makes the issue with Ishy interesting, esp. in light of his presumed presence in Shadar Logath to help with Sammael. Then, LTT discusses a 'third', which has been speculated to be Ishamael. The Moridin/Ishamael-Rand connection is one that will be a major factor, I'm sure.
In TSR, Perrin also commented that he believes Ta'veren are drawn to one another. This makes further sense with Min's viewing of the fireflies. When the 3 Emond Fielder's work together, they're stronger.
This makes the issue with Ishy interesting, esp. in light of his presumed presence in Shadar Logath to help with Sammael. Then, LTT discusses a 'third', which has been speculated to be Ishamael. The Moridin/Ishamael-Rand connection is one that will be a major factor, I'm sure.
This is in reference to two statements.
First off, the argument of pre-destination vs. free-will. I don't believe that one negates the other. Mat, Rand, and Perrin are all forced on a short path, but they are still making their decision. It's a common assumption that if you are destined for a certain fate, that's where you'll end up, but you still have to make the decisions to get there. Rand, Mat and Perrin will always make the necessary decision because they were picked out by the wheel to make those decisions, and the circumstances will always be the same for them to choose properly.
A perfect example of this is when Mat ends up with the Band. He kept doing the right thing at the time, and the next thing he knows, he has an army following him around everywhere. But when it comes right down to it, HE is the one who made that decision. One does not negate the other. Just because you are destined to make a decision, doesn't prevent you from making it. This has been a favorite discussion of mine among my friends. I love the paradox involved.
Secondly, Ishy losing at Falme doesn't necessarily make him not ta'veren. If the pattern wanted him to lose, than he was very ta'veren at the moment. There's nothing that says a ta'veren has to win all the time, and that everything's gonna end happily for him.
If you don't believe me, tell me if Lews Therin died happily at the end of the AoL. I thought he was pretty upset about the way things turned out, wouldn't you.

Just because we want everything to work out for ta'veren doesn't mean it will. So Ishy losing at Falme doesn't make him any less ta'veren, (If he actually is, which I don't think he is. Of course, I don't really have any evidence one way or the other.)
That concludes my mad ramblings
In the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!!!
I think I will flame this theory a little. (I wasn't planning to flame but I have to protect my grouchy reputation).
Do we really need a theory that says water is wet? RJ says it much more eloquently and in fewer words (especially with the many quotes by Loial starting in EotW). Even if we did need theories pointing out the obvious would it hurt for it to be shorter?
That being said, this theory did generate a number of responces--not all of which are lame. I can't fault it entirely.
Finally to all those people who think that people should write only positive responces...
*THHHHHPPPPTTTTTTT!!!!!!!*
RabidWombat
Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule 
Proud owner of a 2 star rating! 
Someone stole all my cookies
I'm just flaming tired of people resorting to calling each other stupid without giving any real reason. When someone makes a valid arguement against a theory, though, that's when the theory post gets interesting. On the other hand, insulting someone else's IQ, reading comprehension, etc., just seems childish.
Everyone be happy! Or I'll visit you in your dreams, and give you something to whine about
Egwene the Skank Sedai
Defender of the Theory Post


Sexier than Lanfear, sluttier than Graendal


Children of the Light are the KKK
My cat's breath smells like cat food!-Ralph Wiggum
Criticism can be contradictory and in opposition, but still be positive and constructive. Disagreement and the ensuing debates is pretty much one of the foundations of the purpose of this board.
It's when it degenerates into calling people 'poopy-heads' and 'blue meanies' that it becomes pointless.
(Actually, Blue Meanies rocked, if anyone knows the reference....)
Very good job. RJ HISOWNSELF says (in the interview at the end of Glimmers) that ta'veren are created to keep the pattern straight. He goes on to say that it is not conscious decision but more like a fuzzy logic loop that self corrects itself. In other words ta'veren are not born but created to serve the Wheel. My feeling is that once they have achieved the Wheel's goal, then their ta'veren-ity dies. Just as in the same way that fuzzy logic will create a sub routine that gets re-absorbed after it accomplishes it's goal.
Any comments on my photos appreciatedMy photos, a work in progress
The entire premise is interesting, but a little too southern baptist for my taste.
It's stated on several occasions throughout the series that the pattern isn't good or evil. The whole base of your theory is that the pattern will be woven at the whim of the wheel. If events are being stacked one way or the other it is implicitly good or evil. If the whole rest of the series is stacked towards the shadow and Rand is victorious at the Last Battle, then the wheel has merely adjusted its weave to allow the light to prevail. It is then safe to say that the WILL of the wheel is, without doubt, good.
Fate?
yes

Divine intervention?
no
the only thing that i have to say is that at some point in the books min says that there were two possible options about some person who i cant think of right now. i could be wrong but it also involed rand and was later on in the books
I find this theory very interesting, all of your points are proven strongly.
I also agree that the wheel was using Ishamael for its own purposes when he sent Hawkwings armies across the Aryth Ocean.
I have always wondered about the Kaetheron Cycle, how was it made? Fortelling perhaps? In any case one line in them is something like this:
When the Wolf King carries the hammer, the last days are known
When the fox marries the raven, the battle horns are blown
These are obvious references to Mat and Perrin, made at the tail end of the AoL. How would the raven have existed if Ishamael hadn't been as "clever" as he was and convinced Hawkwing to send them across the ocean?
Just some thoughts
I agree that Ta'veren are subject to control by the wheel, but in different ways. You seem to be forgetting that the wheel is portrayed as impartial, and it wouldn't care who won as long as it continues on.
Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors
"Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!"
Good job...